What wheel arrangments work best on a high line?

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shild
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What wheel arrangments work best on a high line?

Post by shild »

I could use a lesson about pilot and trailing trucks. I would imagine if you ran something like a kozo 0-4-0 on the high line at Waushakum for example, anything faster than slow and it will hunt side to side?. I would imagine if it hits the rail just right at the switch, it could easily end up on the ground? I'm also looking at something like the Angus 4-4-2 which I imagine would be very stable speed but probably has very poor traction if it has 5 axles and only 2 are powered? What percentage of the weight would be on the pilot and trailing trucks of something like that?
Pontiacguy1
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Re: What wheel arrangments work best on a high line?

Post by Pontiacguy1 »

One of the things that you will find is that most of the time the smaller locomotives with shorter wheelbases will do better tracking than some of the larger and longer locomotives. Lead trucks and trailing trucks do work, which is why they were adopted in the first place... However, some of the best running and performing locomotives I've ever seen, for their size/weight, were 0-4-0s, 2-4-0s, 0-6-0s, 2-6-0s, etc... they seem to handle rough and uneven track pretty well, which explains a lot of why they were used in construction, mines, logging, or anywhere that temporary or poorly laid and maintained track would be used. I don't think that a Kozo 0-4-0 or a Raritan will have any trouble with tracking, and you will be able to run it as fast as you dare without issue.

Usually I try to get it down to about 10-15% of the locomotive weight on a lead or trailing truck. In 7+ gauge, you do need to have enough weight to keep it on the track and also have it run through spring switches without problems. If you have a 4-4-2 that has only about 50% of its weight on the drive wheels, it will be very slippery indeed.
shild
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Re: What wheel arrangments work best on a high line?

Post by shild »

Pontiacguy1 wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:12 pm One of the things that you will find is that most of the time the smaller locomotives with shorter wheelbases will do better tracking than some of the larger and longer locomotives. Lead trucks and trailing trucks do work, which is why they were adopted in the first place... However, some of the best running and performing locomotives I've ever seen, for their size/weight, were 0-4-0s, 2-4-0s, 0-6-0s, 2-6-0s, etc... they seem to handle rough and uneven track pretty well, which explains a lot of why they were used in construction, mines, logging, or anywhere that temporary or poorly laid and maintained track would be used. I don't think that a Kozo 0-4-0 or a Raritan will have any trouble with tracking, and you will be able to run it as fast as you dare without issue.

Usually I try to get it down to about 10-15% of the locomotive weight on a lead or trailing truck. In 7+ gauge, you do need to have enough weight to keep it on the track and also have it run through spring switches without problems. If you have a 4-4-2 that has only about 50% of its weight on the drive wheels, it will be very slippery indeed.
Thanks Pontiacguy. So you like it 10-15% regardless of wether the truck is 1 or 2 axles? Or less weight for the single axle? I'm wondering if building something that's a 4-4-2 as a 2-4-2 instead so you get better adhesion and less castings you buy and machine is a good idea?
mattmason
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Re: What wheel arrangments work best on a high line?

Post by mattmason »

A minimum of three wheels work best. Anything over is even better. :D
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cbrew
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Re: What wheel arrangments work best on a high line?

Post by cbrew »

mattmason wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:24 pm A minimum of three wheels work best. Anything over is even better. :D
three wheels or axles :D :D
If it is not live steam. its not worth it.
Pontiacguy1
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Re: What wheel arrangments work best on a high line?

Post by Pontiacguy1 »

My philosophy is this: Put the minimum weight you can on each truck, regardless of how many wheels it has, so that it stays on the track and doesn't give you problems with tracking through switches, etc... More is less, in other words. You want to put as much weight on the drivers as you can, and that, by necessity, means that you need to minimize your weight on lead and trailing trucks. They do still need to track and work correctly, though, so there always needs to be some weight on them. In the hobby you have a lot sharper curves and a lot steeper grades than would have been encountered on a class 1 railroad. Most of the tracks I've been on would have several sections that would be considered 'helper districts' on a class 1 road. In a lot of ways, our hobby tracks are a lot more like what a logging or mining road would be like, with a few exceptions that I can think of. Most tracks have to fit into a defined plot of ground. So... for best performance in those conditions, adhesion is what you need to maximize.
FKreider
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Re: What wheel arrangments work best on a high line?

Post by FKreider »

I would not worry about what might or might not track the best at 3/4" scale.

If the engine is built decently it will run great, doesn't matter what it is. As someone else mentioned; you will be able to run the engine as fast as you are comfortable even if it is a 0-4-0.

I think boiler size is likely much more important to your enjoyment of the engine. Any engine with a tiny boiler will be much more difficult to run and fire because you will be using steam as fast as you can put water in the boiler. I think this would be especially true on a track like Waushakum. I am thinking of small engines like the LBSC Tich or similar sized.
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JBodenmann
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Re: What wheel arrangments work best on a high line?

Post by JBodenmann »

Hello My Friends
You might think about a tank engine, something without a tender. Then you are right behind the cab and the controls will be easy to reach. Something like a B&A tanker. Nice size engine that will pull several people. Great looking locomotive, large boiler and huge fire box. John at Yankee shops sells the castings and drawings. There are other tank engines that would be great. Just something to think about.
Jack
shild
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Re: What wheel arrangments work best on a high line?

Post by shild »

FKreider wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:38 pm I would not worry about what might or might not track the best at 3/4" scale.

If the engine is built decently it will run great, doesn't matter what it is. As someone else mentioned; you will be able to run the engine as fast as you are comfortable even if it is a 0-4-0.

I think boiler size is likely much more important to your enjoyment of the engine. Any engine with a tiny boiler will be much more difficult to run and fire because you will be using steam as fast as you can put water in the boiler. I think this would be especially true on a track like Waushakum. I am thinking of small engines like the LBSC Tich or similar sized.
I see. If I pick one with a boiler too small, I'll be touching the controls and adding only a little bit of water and coal all the time? Bigger ones you tend the fire less often and add more water less often?
jcbrock
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Re: What wheel arrangments work best on a high line?

Post by jcbrock »

shild wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:44 am I see. If I pick one with a boiler too small, I'll be touching the controls and adding only a little bit of water and coal all the time? Bigger ones you tend the fire less often and add more water less often?
Correct. The advantage though is you will be a master of staying on top of making steam and a larger engine will never get away from you.

Jack B. makes a good point about tank engines, and Greg Easter's modification of the Kozo 0-4-0 to a tank engine is another example.
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James Powell
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Re: What wheel arrangments work best on a high line?

Post by James Powell »

Front and Rear trucks make a huge difference to ride quality of a loco. As does having appropriate sized wheels...though that's not to say you can't flog most 3.5" locos to speeds which you will regret.

I have a Britannia Pacific (4-6-2, 2 cylinder) and a Caribou (0-8-0). Both have shortish tenders (at least by NA sizes...the Brit's is big in comparison to some UK ones). 14" long or so tenders, so you can fire/drive without too much extension controls. Brit has an extension throttle, Caribou has nothing.

Both will get to about 8 MPH if you want to. I think I've had the brit to >12 mph. At those kinds of speeds, it feels like you are flying. The difference in stability is not as much as one might think, though Caribou is not as stable at speed as Britannia. Smaller wheels= faster engine speeds = more pounding motion = more side to side thrust motions (2 cylinder engines...)

I've driven a fair # of locos, and would suggest that a 4-4-0 or 4-6-0 is a good choice, it will be a fair amount bigger of boiler than a 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 in 3.5" Boiler size (fire grate area) is a very good indicator of how easy it will be to fire the loco. What we've seen is that if you have >12"^2 of grate (so 3x4) makes a much easier to fire boiler than smaller. That's not to say that a Tich with ~4"^2 of grate can't be run, but that you need to be a lot less of a ham handed bucket of hammers with a Tich than with Caribou. I would recommend Juliette, or similar sized engines, as being far more "practical" than Tich is- it's not 2x the grate, but more like 1.5 * the grate area, and still a very portable loco. (so, about the same size as Kozo's A5 0-4-0 is...)

Any reasonable 3.5" loco is going to be fairly transportable. Until you decide that you MUST have an AD60, or the Challenger that was on SRS, in which case, well, at least it's still going to fit into a car, rather than a pickup.

James
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Bill Shields
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Re: What wheel arrangments work best on a high line?

Post by Bill Shields »

shild wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:36 pm I could use a lesson about pilot and trailing trucks. I would imagine if you ran something like a kozo 0-4-0 on the high line at Waushakum for example, anything faster than slow and it will hunt side to side?. I would imagine if it hits the rail just right at the switch, it could easily end up on the ground? I'm also looking at something like the Angus 4-4-2 which I imagine would be very stable speed but probably has very poor traction if it has 5 axles and only 2 are powered? What percentage of the weight would be on the pilot and trailing trucks of something like that?
i have run the wheels off of a 3/4" 0-4-0 Tom Thumb around WLS high line and it tracks just fine...
never had any problems with tracking or ending up on the ground except when i fell backwards off the riding car at the station.... :shock:

yes, i have to shovel coal in once and a while and manage the fire...but that is what coal firing is all about.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
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