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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:17 am
Posts: 340
Location: Brady, WA
I finally got my HBM home today, although it is still sitting on my new 4 ton trailer, in front of the shop door.

The move went easy once I owned my own trailer and didn't have to deal with rental places and trailers with load restrictions and surge brakes. ( I needed a larger trailer anyway for my old '36 International 2 ton truck and my Chinese tractor w/ backhoe.)

As I mentioned in another post, I remove the 1 ton counter weight and the rotary table. Until I got the HBM loaded and positioned on the trailer deck, I wasn't sure if I had removed enough weight. I would now estimate the trailer load was about 10,000 pounds but with the extra deck planking and load positioning, the 110 mile trip went well behind a '98 F350 diesel. Admittedly, we were pushing the overload limit but we had good power and good brakes on both the truck and the trailer.

I'm attaching a picture of the mill still on the trailer. It has a 4X8 skid bolted to the bottom of the main base. I also added a pair of full 2"X12" planks on the trailer deck to spread the load out more evenly over the transverse deck beams. I used 2" pipe rollers to move the skid load (load center) over the axles after the forklift set it forward of the fenders. To help support this extra weight, intially, forward on the trailer, I block the forward end of the trailer frame. You can see that I have done this again in the picture. To get the roller out before hauling this load I had to jack up the HBM from between the 2x12 planks and skid. Because of the extra weight of the headstock end, I could use a jack on this end without pushing thru the trailer deck. However the tail stock end was much lighter, I raise the skid from that end and added or removed roller by leaving the center roller until last (just raise and lower,etc.). Hard to explain but it worked.

In the picture I have rolled the HBM all the way forward and tomorrow I will raise the tail end and replace the rollers with 4X4 cribing so the fork lift can get under it.

The crane/rigging company will send a large fork lift that has 6 ft forks and set the machine down on dunnage while they lower the counter weight back into the column. I will secure it in the bottom position in the column wth the roller chain disconnected yet and the head stock still lowered, to maintain the lowest center of gravity.

Since my shop overhead is to low for this fork lift to go inside, they will just set it inside the door on the end of the 6 ft forks. It will be left on some 4X4 cribbing and I will lower it on to roller for the 20 ft transit to its new location in the shop.

Everything else has gone well and I expect the rest will go according to the above plan. I think the hardest part is done, but who knows..

Steve


Attachments:
File comment: Scharmann load awaiting chain down and transport.
P1010098.JPG
P1010098.JPG [ 61.53 KiB | Viewed 1280 times ]
File comment: Scharmann being move forward on trailer for forklift.
P1010103.JPG
P1010103.JPG [ 61.34 KiB | Viewed 1280 times ]

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Jet vertical Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24"X60" LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, South Bend Shaper, Jet 14" Power Hacksaw, B & S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Wm Pilton vert. Slotter, Enco 12" horz. saw, McEnglevan MP36 foundry furnace, Rockwell 14"X42" lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:05 pm
Posts: 1613
Location: Birmingham, AL
Glad it got home without too much disassembly. Seems my estimate wasn't far off, though!

I bought a 7500lb trailer a couple of years ago and it has been worth its weight in gold. It brought the L&S home, it moved the bridge mill from the driveway to the shop, it carried the radial drill home, brought my airplane project up to the house, moved a little 10x8' portable building for a friend, picked up a WWII Jeep for the museum, got another buddie's Nissan Maxima on there right now. I don't think twice about hooking up the old Chevy flatbed and going after most anything as long as the weight is within reason. No morons at Uhaul to deal with, no trying to beat it home to keep from paying another day's rent. One of the best tools I ever bought.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:17 pm 
Steve--

You are having too much fun. Please keep reporting!

--seal killer


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:17 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:17 am
Posts: 340
Location: Brady, WA
It's been about 5 years since I updated this (optimistic) post.
Things went well on moving it thru the shop door door with a hired fork lift. From there I put it on 2" ips rollers and just barred it along the floor, about 25', into position. Roughly leveled it and want to wait and see if the floor settles any.
Within a couple weeks, I had 3 phase power to it. Turned it on and when I engaged the clutch, the spindle only move slightly. Then nothing, no matter what gear I put it in, no table travel, nothing. %^$&()_*__)% ;0{ :cry:
I took the cover off the gear box and found the Stromag clutch was engaging but not transmitting power beyond the drum. Over the next couple days I removed the motor, disassembled the upper gears to get the clutch assembly out.
When I opened it up, what mess I found. This is a disc pack type of clutch with the drum being driven by the motor, a alternating series of inter and outer discs. The outer discs are "tabbed" to three slots in the drum interior, while the inter discs are "tabbed" to the center hub, which is keyed to the output shaft. The outer discs tabs were stripped to shreds and the drum slot mangled beyond use. The inter disc tabs/hub were fine, just normal ware. The clutch pack 3 release levers had suffered some serious damage as well.

Why? :?: It became obvious when I remove the clutch output shaft and hub from the drum. Someone had recently worked on the clutch. The pilot bearing that seats inside the drum, to receive/support the end of the output shaft was missing all together. Why again? :?: Well I didn't need a micrometer to tell that the end of the shaft was mushrooned from someone hammering on it, to the point it wouldn't have fit into the pilot bearing. :cry:

Just ran long enough for the shop demonstration. Stopped by to see what the seller had to say. He admitted that he had a mechanic adjust the clutch, felt bad, but only offered to take it back if I would load and haul it. I didn't want to do that and if I had to load and haul it, I would get more money at the scrap yard. I didn't want to do that either.

I eventually contacted Scharmann, the German Mfg., and the told me the Stromag clutch was out of production and that a replacement was only available if Stromag were to build a "one-off" for around $6,000 US. No offer of parts.

Over the next 4 years, my (late) friend Roy worked on various clutch components. The most difficult was the clutch discs and we weren't happy with those we made. Were talking about machining ~ .0020" sheet metal (normally die cut). The release levers were interesting but tedious but do-able. The drum was too far gone for repair so we made a new one and still have to cut the internal slots. I now have a Bridgeport slotter on the back end of the ram on my Jet vert. mill.

As I mentioned in another post, Roy passed away a year ago. All work had stopped about a year earlier. I managed to purchase his mill and a lot of other equipment from his estate. I also searched out the shop and found all of the old and new and partially competed parts that Roy had been working on.

About that time I found that Stromag, the clutch maker, had a US presents. I contacted them and gave them the model number of my clutch to see if they had any parts support. Sure enough were able to get 'clutch pack' assembles on special order from their supplier. This would be the 7 internal discs, 7 external discs, 7 spreader springs rings and pressure disk. Price $640 with 4 week delivery time. Expensive but better than hauling this mill to the scrap dealer. The clutch release levers cost $399 but the ones we were making are near completion.

I'm going forward with the order of the clutch pack. Some thing, you just have to buy. I just have to reflect, I was in my 60s when I bought this HBM and now I'm in my mid 70s. Life is tooooooo short.

I'll try to keep you all posted.

Steve

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Jet vertical Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24"X60" LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, South Bend Shaper, Jet 14" Power Hacksaw, B & S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Wm Pilton vert. Slotter, Enco 12" horz. saw, McEnglevan MP36 foundry furnace, Rockwell 14"X42" lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:04 pm
Posts: 3253
Location: mid atlantic
Thankyou for providing the update. I'm truly sorry about the trouble and about the loss of Roy. I know that's not the main deal but it really must have impacted .. True wisdom in this thread.


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 10:11 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:17 am
Posts: 340
Location: Brady, WA
Wow! 6 years since I have moved this machine into my shop, only to find that the internal Stromag clutch was trashed by the last mechanic (?) to work on it. :cry: During that time, off and on my late friend and fine machinist, Roy, worked on building parts to replace the damaged parts. He accomplished a lot and with very little to work with and after his death, I took inventory of what "we" had and what was still needed to complete this restoration/repair. Two of the main shafts were complete which included one with a spur gear on the end. Also the replacement clutch drum was partially complete with the IDs machined for to fit pilot bearing and key ways broached. Still needing the internal slots for the 3 disk tabs (internal slotter job). I think he was was waiting to final turn the critical ODs until after the slotting operation and I will follow that lead. Then just the drill and tapping of some retainer mounts and oil passages.

He had also roughed out the clutch release leavers but lacked some critical measurements that the need for spherical grinding on the contact surface on one end.

Also, early on in the initial repair attempt, we had tried to make replacements for 7 damaged drum driving disks from .063" 4340 sheet by milling the this odd shape OEM would have been die stamped from .050". Results were not satisfactory and we were going to have to grind them to the proper thickness to get the .050". Who knows what would have happened after heat treating??

Shortly after his death, I had done a "new" Google search on the clutch mfg/USA and got a hit "YaH". I contacted them and they with the clutch model number and they offered to make a whole new clutch for $3,800 (nah) or a complete clutch disk pack set for $640. Spendy! but What's a guy going to do??

That just left the release levers, mentioned above. The could make these (3) for initially for $314/set. Hmmm! Well OK. At least until I tried to finalize the order, which was beyond the 90 cut off on the quote deadline. When the re-quoted it and the that price became $314/each. Ouch! Deal breaker, and they realized that. We worked out a compromise and I got the set of 3 for a little over $500 plus the complete disk pack at the original $640.

Well it's a lot of money for to repair a 60 year old machine but it's been sitting in the center of my shop "thumbing it's nose at me" for over 6 years. I really felt bad that Roy had spent a large portion of the last years of his life working on this and I didn't want it to be a lost cause. I can do the slotting and final turning of the drum myself and I could have finished the release levers, after building a setup to do some spherical grinding (yah! right!) but the disks were going to be beyond me. I had been involved in this process on the first attempt and it was very tedious and like I said, it should have been die stamped.

I have the parts now in hand and really have not regrets. I did a quick trial assembly of the disk pack and release levers using the old damaged drum and being satisfied that I understand the workings, think I can now proceed with the slotting of the new drum.

I also climbed up on the ladder and surveyed the interior of the, now, disassembled gear head. It has been a long time since to took it apart. Doing the math, I was 68 when I tore it down and I am going to be 75 when I finally get it back together. Don't you think I will have forgotten a few things in that 6-7 years?? :?: One thing for sure, I have the determination to complete this after all the effort Roy put into these repairs. The money I just spent is really only equal to about 20 shop hours at conservative rates.

It's not going to happen over night but I have moved this project up on my Bucket List to #1 :)

Going to be a great machine addition when I get if running again.

I'll keep you-all posted.

Steve

_________________
Jet vertical Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24"X60" LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, South Bend Shaper, Jet 14" Power Hacksaw, B & S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Wm Pilton vert. Slotter, Enco 12" horz. saw, McEnglevan MP36 foundry furnace, Rockwell 14"X42" lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 1:36 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:17 am
Posts: 340
Location: Brady, WA
I have been clearing away the pieces and parts to get started on reassembling this machine and realizing that I don't really have any tooling for a machine this big. It didn't come with any tooling.

The spindle has 5 MT. There is no draw bolt as I see it, having such a long spindle. The spindle does have a pair of 3/8" key slots on the outside. The quill has a large face with 4 tee slots at 90 deg to attach tooling (I suppose), such as the advertised large (to 30" dia.) facing head. Don't know where I will find such a device (if I thought I needed it).

My intention is to do horiz. boring and spot facing. One of my first projects will be to build and surface some large angle plates for this table. Another is to restore the surface, mount and resurface the 24" dia. table for my old and abused radial drill.

However, for ordinary boring or using standard end mills, it looks like I might be left to use the MT taper end mill holders. These always seem to rely on a draw bolt.

Any suggestions on this problem or recommendations would be appreciated. Maybe I'm missing something??

Steve

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Jet vertical Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24"X60" LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, South Bend Shaper, Jet 14" Power Hacksaw, B & S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Wm Pilton vert. Slotter, Enco 12" horz. saw, McEnglevan MP36 foundry furnace, Rockwell 14"X42" lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 2:57 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Posts: 11827
Location: Onalaska, WA USA
I spent almost my entire machining career working with small machines---the largest ever being a 48" sliding gap bed LeBlond. As a result, I'm not well informed on large equipment. Wish I could offer something of substance, but I'd just be flapping my gums. With a little luck, maybe Kap will chime in. I get the idea he's operated some of the larger pieces in his many years in the shop.

Harold

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Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 10:08 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:17 am
Posts: 340
Location: Brady, WA
As my "handle" user name might indicate, I have very little actual experience actually operating most machines. Spending most of my latter years in production management/mfg eng. etc. I did gain an appreciation for and understanding of the capabilities of these machinists and their machines. Most all were the standard lathe mill and shaper operations of small job or production runs. In the shipyard shops, navy and civilian, there was always much more capacity that seldom needed. You might say "over-kill" but it was there.

The horizontal boring mill offered the ability to tackle the largest complex shapes for the simplest machining operation. No matter that it over hung the table or blocked the passage around the machine. Just to face a flange or line bore some bearing journals.

Due to the size and expense the are not commonly found in home machine shops. I have, however, observed that they are able to do many tasks, as previously described and a others that may challenge the abilities of standard machines. I have several proto type projects awaiting some of these capabilities (subject or a future post).

Just my thoughts FWIW.

Steve

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Jet vertical Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24"X60" LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, South Bend Shaper, Jet 14" Power Hacksaw, B & S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Wm Pilton vert. Slotter, Enco 12" horz. saw, McEnglevan MP36 foundry furnace, Rockwell 14"X42" lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 11:46 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2003 1:00 am
Posts: 1498
Location: Molalla, Oregon
Wanna-Be wrote:
In the shipyard shops, navy and civilian, there was always much more capacity that seldom needed. You might say "over-kill" but it was there.


Having worked in the shipyard I know a lot of machines sat a good deal of the time. The thing is often you have 2 weeks or less to tear the ship apart repair what needs repaired and put it back together. Big parts that need machining often are to big to truck to another machine shop, so the machines had to be there to get the job done. The smaller items would be sent to other shops as often we did not have the machinist's or machines to do everything right now. Usually we had to do the hard stuff, because no one else wanted it. Ever notice the machines were old and worn out so not just any machinist could walk in and make good parts. We had over 100 year old boring mill and planer. You can't pay 1/2 a million dollars for a machine to set. It took talent to make good parts on old worn out machines and we are losing that talent at an alarming rate.

Wanna-Be wrote:
The horizontal boring mill offered the ability to tackle the largest complex shapes for the simplest machining operation. No matter that it over hung the table or blocked the passage around the machine. Just to face a flange or line bore some bearing journals.


True I have picked up parts so large with the crane that you rode on the part as it moved to the machine you were going to use. Often we would coat the ways with STP because we were over loading the machine. But the job was done and sent back to the ship. We once turned a 100 ton shaft that needed a bearing journal welded and returned with out a lathe.

Wanna-Be wrote:
Due to the size and expense the are not commonly found in home machine shops. I have, however, observed that they are able to do many tasks, as previously described and a others that may challenge the abilities of standard machines. I have several proto type projects awaiting some of these capabilities (subject or a future post).
Steve


I look forward to future posts.

For a smaller part you can often get buy using a large horizontal mill as an HBM. I have line bored a few parts with the arbor support used to hold the end of an over size boring bar.

There is a guy who lives in the next town over who has 3 HBM's of different sizes for his hobby of collecting and restoring large hit-n-miss engines. The smallest one is smaller than a #2 horizontal mill. I wouldn't mind have a small HBM, but I don't really have a need for one or the room either.

Richard W.


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:17 am
Posts: 340
Location: Brady, WA
Richard, thanks for the reply. I had great respect to the machinist that ran those machines. Not being a machinist, I wasn't able to use the machine but since retiring I have collected just about every type of machine that I had observed doing these jobs.

Since retirement I have amassed a collection of similar machines, on a slightly smaller scale, as we had on the US Navy Repair Ships (AR). Since we also had foundries on board, I watched and learned a little about that. I have a small furnace and plan to do some in gray cast iron, aluminum and bronze/brass. (can't let that scrap and shavings go to waste)

In my late friend Roy's shop he had an old Giddings Lewis HBM the earliest they made. He had actually run a later model while working for GL in the "50s, later worked in the PSNS yard in Bremerton until retirement. His 3" HBM was the center piece of his shop and the most frequently used because it was "the go-to machine" for anything you couldn't get on to a mill table or swing in a lathe. Just as long as you could get it through the doors, he would manage to secure it on the table. Might have to move another machine but the job got done, eventually. A lot of large tractor parts and heavy equipment, etc.. Sometimes, metal fab shop would bring in something that should have been machined in a lathe or mill before weld out, Nah! do it now on the HBM.

Richard, your just down in Oregon, so if you get in a bind, your welcome to give me a shout when and if you need the HBM.

Steve

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Jet vertical Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24"X60" LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, South Bend Shaper, Jet 14" Power Hacksaw, B & S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Wm Pilton vert. Slotter, Enco 12" horz. saw, McEnglevan MP36 foundry furnace, Rockwell 14"X42" lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 3:27 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Posts: 11827
Location: Onalaska, WA USA
Harold_V wrote:
I spent almost my entire machining career working with small machines---the largest ever being a 48" sliding gap bed LeBlond. As a result, I'm not well informed on large equipment. Wish I could offer something of substance, but I'd just be flapping my gums. With a little luck, maybe Kap will chime in. I get the idea he's operated some of the larger pieces in his many years in the shop.

Harold


It's rather embarrassing for me to have ignored the fact that Richard_W is a seasoned machinist and has worked with these machines on a routine basis. I have the utmost respect for him, and his experience and knowledge. Wish I'd have thought to include him in my comments. :oops:

<<<<<sigh>>>>>

Harold

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Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.


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