Chaski Railfan

Just wondering. Can they also be used when backing up as well as moving forward? Thanks

I believe not.
AFAIK, the clutching mechanism only allows for forward loading. I'm going on memory from something I read, so I could be wrong. But if nobody else chimes in here with more information, I think I'm pretty much correct.
Mark D. (I'll even sign my name to it!)

I think you're right, Mark. The 4449 crew recently overhauled the trailing truck (with booster). I'll see if I can get a photo or two.

Not meaning to hijack Rick F's thread, but that'd be great if you can come up with a photo, Fitz. I haven't ever seen one "in person" and the only photo I've seen was pretty poor quality. Couldn't see much.
I'd know more, but 261 doesn't have one. ... Thank goodness! That'd be just more stuff to maintain.
Mark D.

The L&N M-1 berkshires had Franklin high speed and reversable boosters. I am sure there were others but that is the only one I can remember off the top of my head.

John Bohon

IIRC, one of the big problems with boosters was that the engineer would forget to disengage the booster, causing it to overspeed as the engine accelerated and turn itself into so much scrap metal.

John, from what you said it appears that at least some were reversable. I find myself wondering whether these would have been the ones most suceptable to damage from overspeeding.

But, it's way beyond anything I can say I know one way or the other.
Any experts out there who can chime in with more information??????

HI BRENT!
Mark D.

I am far from an expert and am to young to have ever seen a L&N M-1, much to my regret. If you have access to one of the newer Locomotive Cyclopedias it may have reversable boosters in it. I will check mine but it is from the early thirties and I doubt they were reversable that early. If you think about it reversable boosters, both trailing truck and tender types, could come in very handy on any engine that must do switching. It would certainly make shoving a cut of cars over a hump a lot easier. Steady low speed operation with tonnage can be tricky with steam. The L&N being a coal road certainly knew the M-1's would spend some time switching coal mines or making set outs while hanging onto long cuts of cars.

Most boosters disengaged when the reverse lever was brought back to a certain point on the quadrant. Unless an engineer was pounding the engine unnecessarly it would be difficult to run the booster much over its designed speed. I think the real cause of many booster failures was the dispatchers adding what the L&N guys called booster tonnage to engines they knew had servicable boosters. Booster tonnage was tonnage dispatchers added to the train that the engine could only pull with the booster. Dispatchers seem to be born with a gene that requires them to hang every car on the train the engine can possibly pull. This caused the boosters to run for longer periods of time and lead to failure. Boosters were also somewhat complicated machines and such things are naturally prone to higher rates of failures. The trade off for pulling more tonnage was more maintaince expense. It was true then and is still true.

John Bohon

Here are a few pictures of the booster on the Reading and Northern's 2102. I took these pictures at the open house that they have back in 2003.

http://jrevans.fbody.com/reading_northern_2003_open_house/2102_booster_engine.jpg
http://jrevans.fbody.com/reading_northern_2003_open_house/2102_booster_engine_2.jpg
http://jrevans.fbody.com/reading_northern_2003_open_house/2102_booster_engine_3.jpg
http://jrevans.fbody.com/reading_northern_2003_open_house/2102_booster_engine_4.jpg

Not great pictures, but all that I have.

JimE
http://jrevans.fbody.com/trains.html

John is correct in his post regarding hooking up causing the booster to cut off. The way this was accomplished is that the booster starting lever/valve was attached to the power reverse quadrant. When all the way in the corner forward gear only the booster could be engaged. Once you started hooking up the starting valve would disengage. So the booster ran in forward only. Also within the booster engine itself was an overspeed device.

Adam,

Thanks for jumping in here. I was hoping to find someone who knows more about boosters than I, certainly not a difficult thing to do. Perhaps you or someone else can finally clear up a question I have had since 1972.

My statement about the L&N M-1 berkshires having reversable boosters started from a quote in the December 1972 issue of Trains Magazine article by Charlie Castner about the L&N M-1. On page 29 Paragraph 2 column 1 is the following sentence "A high speed (and reversable Franklin) booster raised this figure to over 79,000 pounds.". Since the magazine came out I have read a couple of other statements about the reversable boosters on the M-1's. Living several years in Tennessee I had the opportunity to talk to some old L&N men. Some remembered the M-1 boosters being reversable but possibly only on the earlier Baldwin engines.

I have been searching all of these years for evidence proving or disproving that reversable boosters existed. I picture a reversable booster having a starting valve on each end of the reverse quadrant plumbed to operate the booster either in forward motion or reverse. Unfortunately I have never seen a good backhead photo of a Baldwin M-1 but one on page 46 of the same Trains Magazing showing a Lima bachkhead does not seem to show such a divice on the back end of the quadrant. I suppose it would be possible to have another manual means of starting and shutting down the booster but I think that is unlikely. Does anyone have poof positive that Franklin never built reversable boosters? Does anyone have a good backhead photo of a Baldwin, preferably from the first batch of M-1's, that could show a booster starting valve on the reverse end of the quadrant or some other means of operating the booster in reverse?

My practical experience with boosters is limited to some pipe fitting on the 614 booster and general viewing of them in operation on locomotives like 614, 2101, and 2839. Besides the fact that the M-1 is my favorite locomotive I would love to know if reversable boosters were made and if so how they worked in reverse. All of my steam books date from 1930 and before so there were about 20 years of development I do not have access to.

As long as we are talking about boosters I do not remember how the booster starting valve was arranged on engines like 2839 with screw reverse. My weak old mind does not remember tha arrangement on the 2839. Can someone bring me up to speed here as well?

Thanks.

John Bohon

Some Trailing truck booster engines were reversible.......... but......... in the idling position only. And only to free the engine of a near dead or dead center position of one of the pistons. There were as many as least five different set ups to engage/ disengage the booster engine near or directly attached to the the power reverse gear in the cab. Some had a mechanical lock out or cut out if the gear was hooked up passed a certain point some were just plain manual some used a lever with an air dump to the idler gear. 1522 had an auto flip out disengage that would occur when it was hooked up ( I don't know the exact cut off percent it occured at). 4449's is different with a entirely seperate handle.

Idling is running the booster engine with the idler gear disengaged to heat up the Booster, lubricate it and get the locomotive and get the gear up to speed if cutting in while moving ( less than 12 mph, 12 being the max. while moving cut in speed). Idling was also used prior to start to heat up and lube. There are also cylinder cocks to evacuate any condensation.

It is very specific in the book " do not engage the booster while in reverse" and only move in reverse with the booster engaged for a short distance to get the booster to disengage.

As a side, almost all trailing tuck castings from Lima and from commonwealth had provisions for retrofit of a booster.

All this comes from Franklin's 1946 care and feeding of the c-1 to c-4 locomotive booster book.

Franklin E series boosters were rated for higher speeds up to 37 MPH depending on driver size and were able to be cut in at up to 22 mph and add 15,000 Lbs of T.E. rather than 12,00 with a C class , but again no reverse provisions are made. The locomotive of a booster is no more complex than a stoker engine only bigger, the problems come into play with engineers cutting them in at greater speeds than allowable, not disengaging them when stopping, and running them at to high a speed.

Franklin recommends loading the tonnage up to Max with the booster cut and running the booster for all trains regardless of tonnage to get the train up to speed. The efficiency of them was tremendous and C&O was one of the few roads to fully realize thier operatng potencial from an operating and financial asspect.

Thanks. That clears up a lot of things. I had thought about how to get a booster engine off center before but had come up with few good answers short of reversing. I also knew there were different ways to engage the booster. The 2839 with its screw reverse was an example of an engine where you could not release the booster with a latch on the reverse quadrant. I must admit I do not remember the arrangement on that locomotive.

Thanks again for the information.

John Bohon

I've never seen the latch on a screw type power reverse locomotive with a booster, in the franklin book it shows two different styles one with an Air actuating button that cuts the air off to the piston and a mechanical kick out when the screw is brought back to a certain percent of cut off. As always the engineer can manually disengage the idler gear at any time.

S A

2839 had a mechanically driven indicator to show the engineer the position of the valve gear. The arm from the indicator was linked to another arm which in turn only allowed the booster to be operated in the lower range of the valve gear "quadrant". You could idle the booster with the valve gear in any position but the main booster throttle would only open if the reverse gear was set in the lower "quadrant".
Mike Tillger