My wheel works and now I want to bend my sheet in the way I mentioned in my previous post (both directions).
My first attempt has gone in the directions I wanted. But the finished is poor.
Instead of the nice flow of a fender I have ended up with a fender with dents that can only be described as "eggs frying on the fender".
What causes these bumps. Am I being too heavy with my kick adjustment or are they soft spots in the Ali.
Also when I push the plate through in some parts the plate slips through, are these areas what I should somehow be controlling.
Please remember I am a total novice here and have yet to understand what I am doing with this machine.
Hey, I have just finished making an english wheel.
Re: Hey, I have just finished making an english wheel.
Just curious, what's the TIR of your upper roll and the anvils? Check by hand spinning the the rolls slowly with a dial indicator point riding near/on center.
.001" total movement on the indicator is considered about the maximum deviation from true running you should see. If you have more, this could be part of your problem.
.001" total movement on the indicator is considered about the maximum deviation from true running you should see. If you have more, this could be part of your problem.
Re: Hey, I have just finished making an english wheel.
I think DR has already got a good handle on this in terms of runout of the wheels.
Sometimes you will get varying opinions on acceptable runout - and to make it worse those giving opinions will back them up with their own "years of experience" - which of course CAN'T really be denied. However the effect of the runout will be directly affected by the stiffness of the particular ewheel frame. The more flexible frames will tolerate MORE runout than a stiffer one.
I think the typical reccomendation is no more than a couple thou of runout (.002" TIR) granted I kinda doubt this is a "black and white" sort of spec, but keeping it less than .002" will definitely keep you out of trouble.
How much pressure are you using when you wheel your panel???? Moreso on the beginning - I always seemed to errr on the "way too much pressure" side of the equation.
What material are you starting with? Steel?? Aluminum??? Alloy????
BTW the runout MUST be good one ALL the wqheels - upper and lower.
Any chance you can share (post) a pic of your wheel????
Inquiring minds - ya know
Good Luck
Sometimes you will get varying opinions on acceptable runout - and to make it worse those giving opinions will back them up with their own "years of experience" - which of course CAN'T really be denied. However the effect of the runout will be directly affected by the stiffness of the particular ewheel frame. The more flexible frames will tolerate MORE runout than a stiffer one.
I think the typical reccomendation is no more than a couple thou of runout (.002" TIR) granted I kinda doubt this is a "black and white" sort of spec, but keeping it less than .002" will definitely keep you out of trouble.
How much pressure are you using when you wheel your panel???? Moreso on the beginning - I always seemed to errr on the "way too much pressure" side of the equation.
What material are you starting with? Steel?? Aluminum??? Alloy????
BTW the runout MUST be good one ALL the wqheels - upper and lower.
Any chance you can share (post) a pic of your wheel????
Inquiring minds - ya know
Good Luck
-
Greg_S
Re: Hey, I have just finished making an english wheel.
No doubt the wheel run out needs investigating but it also sounds like that you have overworked the metal (aluminum) and it needs to be annealed, whether that is initially and/or again.
We need more information to offer good advice. Alloy, temper, thickness. Also, do your anvil wheels have a 'flat' spot blended in tangent on the sides to the radius?
You might also consider trying a urethane covered upper wheel as a cheap experiment and for your own future knowledge with the aluminum.
Wheeling, as Jacin eluded to, is full of opinions that have worked for each different person so a lot of what you learn by trial and error will be good for you. I could blab on about that but I won't.
My 'simple' advice is to remember that wheeling is a rather slow process which in itself is a good feature. It's kind of a Zen thing. Get into 'tracking' the panel through the wheels where it becomes a natural action and then start learning by observing the results. Keep the pressure on the light side and sneak up on the shape you are after. Back years ago, I used to put my 9 year old daughter demonstrating wheeling machines at car shows. Her little arms couldn't go about it too fast any way but grown men would stand there and watch her for the longest time. It was a good pitch, they figured if she could put shape into a panel then they ought to be able to.
One last thing, remember what Jacin explained in one of the other post.... SHRINKING! You are not going to get a lot of panels formed without shrinking. Many of them require it. The paper mock up shows it clearly when you are planning out a panel.
By All Means, DON'T GET DISCOURAGED!!! You can learn this wheeling thing and you will be pleased with the results and finish of the metal when you're done.
And Jacin, if you read this, what was the modification you made to your planishing hammer that you liked? Just curious myself.
We need more information to offer good advice. Alloy, temper, thickness. Also, do your anvil wheels have a 'flat' spot blended in tangent on the sides to the radius?
You might also consider trying a urethane covered upper wheel as a cheap experiment and for your own future knowledge with the aluminum.
Wheeling, as Jacin eluded to, is full of opinions that have worked for each different person so a lot of what you learn by trial and error will be good for you. I could blab on about that but I won't.
My 'simple' advice is to remember that wheeling is a rather slow process which in itself is a good feature. It's kind of a Zen thing. Get into 'tracking' the panel through the wheels where it becomes a natural action and then start learning by observing the results. Keep the pressure on the light side and sneak up on the shape you are after. Back years ago, I used to put my 9 year old daughter demonstrating wheeling machines at car shows. Her little arms couldn't go about it too fast any way but grown men would stand there and watch her for the longest time. It was a good pitch, they figured if she could put shape into a panel then they ought to be able to.
One last thing, remember what Jacin explained in one of the other post.... SHRINKING! You are not going to get a lot of panels formed without shrinking. Many of them require it. The paper mock up shows it clearly when you are planning out a panel.
By All Means, DON'T GET DISCOURAGED!!! You can learn this wheeling thing and you will be pleased with the results and finish of the metal when you're done.
And Jacin, if you read this, what was the modification you made to your planishing hammer that you liked? Just curious myself.
Sorted the bumps.
The bumps were caused by heavy use of the kick wheel. The next plate I put through shaped into a half motorcycle gas tank shape.
A full 3D shape and I am over the moon with the results.
I made the wheel frame entirely from scrap steel, the 8in wheel was a middle from a flamecut ring. I had to weld up the entry hole. The bottom wheel was taken from the scrap bin. Fortunately I model 3D computer shapes and create cutterpaths of the 3d shape for CNC machines for a living. I did a deal with a toolmaker, he turned my wheels and I did him some cutterpaths. So I have got myself a cheap english wheel.
Does not look much but I think I am going to be able to do what I want on it. All of my future projects are Aluminum with a max thickness of 4mm.
Could anyone post some links on the techniques involved in the use of the english wheel.
[img]/ubb/images/graemlins/smile.gif"%20alt="[/img]
A full 3D shape and I am over the moon with the results.
I made the wheel frame entirely from scrap steel, the 8in wheel was a middle from a flamecut ring. I had to weld up the entry hole. The bottom wheel was taken from the scrap bin. Fortunately I model 3D computer shapes and create cutterpaths of the 3d shape for CNC machines for a living. I did a deal with a toolmaker, he turned my wheels and I did him some cutterpaths. So I have got myself a cheap english wheel.
Does not look much but I think I am going to be able to do what I want on it. All of my future projects are Aluminum with a max thickness of 4mm.
Could anyone post some links on the techniques involved in the use of the english wheel.
[img]/ubb/images/graemlins/smile.gif"%20alt="[/img]
Re: Hey, I have just finished making an english wheel.
Hi Greg, Of Course I am reading your reply!! I need to learn from everyone I can!!!!!!
As to your question about my hammer let me give alittle background first. I studied several of the currently available air planishers and pretty much took a cue from them. However in the quest for better results I tried several different approaches. Now keep in mind I haven't been exposed to many hammers and therefore what I might think is New and Great might be Old and Boring. With that said, my hammer was in many ways typical of what is out there on the Budget hammers. Air Rivit gun (3X) for power - simple "C" frame and a couple of slick but non earthshaking "improements. I also used the typical "air foot switch" for running it. I eventually decided that was cheesy (air wastful too - as they don't feather for crap) and instead hooked up a old hot rod gas pedal to a lever that activates the origional triggers assy. This gives COMPLETE feather ability tothe point where you can go so slow you can count the hits to full speed (a blur). My next problem was my lack of experience ocasionally resulted in some "edge hits" leaving some rather nasty gouges in my nearly complete panels. YUK! I switched over to some rivet hammers with a built in urethane ring to prevent such marks - and as much as that was a step in the right direction it still left a bit to be desired in the unit overall. After a couple hours of constant use I would find my "sissy" hands starting to ache. In a evvort to help more precisely control hammer hit pressure I ended up putting a "air cylinder" directly below the lower anvil. Hooked up another foot switch to this (with regulator of course) and viola - I could now hammer away for hours on end with my sissy hands in tack and ache free. Side benefits was that the pressure now "automatically" aligned the panel and "edge hits" are a thing of the past. The concept is similar to how a CP hammer works, but instead of using your foot to move the upper hammer assembly you use air pressure to raise the lower anvil. MEGA easy to install and simple to use - and on the outside chance you don't like it - simply don't use it - nothing gained nothing lost.
I also experimented adding "flats" to my lower anvils. Although this has received mostly skeptasism (sp?) I have found the results are clearly better. Now admittedly this might be coverign soem other "problem" with my particular frame design - but again I can't argue with the results. Much later I had a conversation with a fellow that does mucho aviation work and he reassured me that I was heading on the right direction with the "flats" on my anvils. He reccomended having BOTH sets.
WOW I babble (again)
Well there it is - can't say for certain any of it is really NEW or different, but I will say I stumbled on most of it the HARD WAY (trial and error)
Happy Hammering
As to your question about my hammer let me give alittle background first. I studied several of the currently available air planishers and pretty much took a cue from them. However in the quest for better results I tried several different approaches. Now keep in mind I haven't been exposed to many hammers and therefore what I might think is New and Great might be Old and Boring. With that said, my hammer was in many ways typical of what is out there on the Budget hammers. Air Rivit gun (3X) for power - simple "C" frame and a couple of slick but non earthshaking "improements. I also used the typical "air foot switch" for running it. I eventually decided that was cheesy (air wastful too - as they don't feather for crap) and instead hooked up a old hot rod gas pedal to a lever that activates the origional triggers assy. This gives COMPLETE feather ability tothe point where you can go so slow you can count the hits to full speed (a blur). My next problem was my lack of experience ocasionally resulted in some "edge hits" leaving some rather nasty gouges in my nearly complete panels. YUK! I switched over to some rivet hammers with a built in urethane ring to prevent such marks - and as much as that was a step in the right direction it still left a bit to be desired in the unit overall. After a couple hours of constant use I would find my "sissy" hands starting to ache. In a evvort to help more precisely control hammer hit pressure I ended up putting a "air cylinder" directly below the lower anvil. Hooked up another foot switch to this (with regulator of course) and viola - I could now hammer away for hours on end with my sissy hands in tack and ache free. Side benefits was that the pressure now "automatically" aligned the panel and "edge hits" are a thing of the past. The concept is similar to how a CP hammer works, but instead of using your foot to move the upper hammer assembly you use air pressure to raise the lower anvil. MEGA easy to install and simple to use - and on the outside chance you don't like it - simply don't use it - nothing gained nothing lost.
I also experimented adding "flats" to my lower anvils. Although this has received mostly skeptasism (sp?) I have found the results are clearly better. Now admittedly this might be coverign soem other "problem" with my particular frame design - but again I can't argue with the results. Much later I had a conversation with a fellow that does mucho aviation work and he reassured me that I was heading on the right direction with the "flats" on my anvils. He reccomended having BOTH sets.
WOW I babble (again)
Well there it is - can't say for certain any of it is really NEW or different, but I will say I stumbled on most of it the HARD WAY (trial and error)
Happy Hammering
Question for Jacin
This air planisher you have, would you use it to put 1inch radius along a 3D form created on the wheel.
Or would you wheel that in. If you wheel it in do you do the small radius before finishing the main shape or do you finish the main shape the whell in the small radius last.
Could you also point me to a link showing the type of air riveter to use for a planishing hammer.
Thanks
Or would you wheel that in. If you wheel it in do you do the small radius before finishing the main shape or do you finish the main shape the whell in the small radius last.
Could you also point me to a link showing the type of air riveter to use for a planishing hammer.
Thanks
Re: Question for Jacin
Well, there's more knowledgeable people than me to ask (Greg for one), but untill they chime in I will give it a "go"
I suppose it depends on how the panel is laid out. Keeping in mind there are multiple ways to skin a cat so to speak. With that said I think I would lean towards rolling or hammering that feature in last. If the panel's curvature is quite shallow I might try rolling it in first. Either way - the thing I try to remember (and often forget) is that when you "add" these features you must allow for the metal to "come" from somewhere - meaning you're likely gonna need to locally stretch the panel to allow this additional surface area to occur without having the rest of the panel "fight" you. That's one of the "tricks" I am forever trying to master. How to READ the panel. I don't claim to be any sort of master at any of this - I just go out and pound - wheel - until SOME of these concepts actually sink in and make sense. Go back to the piece of flat paper again - if you can visualize the panel's transformation from flat to curved you are already half way there. Realizing that most all shaping is simply adding the appropriate amount of shrinking or stretching you'll find out that the panels ALMOST shape them selves. I'm NOT suggesting I am very good at this. BUT I have had it happen and I was literally standing there in amazement that the part "shaped itself" so easily.
In reality I simply followed the paper pattern pretty close and the metal had no other reason to not flow into position.
I think the general style behind lots of panel beating (wheeling
etc) is to form/shape the part in general - small accents can be added later when the orientation is already close. LARGE accents might be easier to address in the preliminary forming.
Of course the "other" area to consider is acessability - will the feature to be added really be accessable (with your available tooling) after you have added the main shape. SOmetimes this just means tweaking a tool or even making a special one off tool. I ended up making a "extra narrow" lower anvil and holder for my ewheel especially to wheel in the corner radii of an already shaped panel. In this case the "problem" presented the "solution" - you know you sit ther eand say "if I only had a narrower anvil....." or "If I only had an offset_____ gizmo..."
The "Metalshapers" as well as the "Metalshaping" groups on Yahoo have fellas that are FAR more knowledgeable than myself and are willing to help us fledglings - not to mention the MSA website has LOTS of member albums which often outline a project's construction - be it tooling (ewheels, planishing hammers, helve hammers, pullmax type tooling, hand tooling, hand hammers, yoders type hammers etc etc) I believe their website is www.metalshapers.com
I even snuck in an album or two there.
So whacha makin' ???
I suppose it depends on how the panel is laid out. Keeping in mind there are multiple ways to skin a cat so to speak. With that said I think I would lean towards rolling or hammering that feature in last. If the panel's curvature is quite shallow I might try rolling it in first. Either way - the thing I try to remember (and often forget) is that when you "add" these features you must allow for the metal to "come" from somewhere - meaning you're likely gonna need to locally stretch the panel to allow this additional surface area to occur without having the rest of the panel "fight" you. That's one of the "tricks" I am forever trying to master. How to READ the panel. I don't claim to be any sort of master at any of this - I just go out and pound - wheel - until SOME of these concepts actually sink in and make sense. Go back to the piece of flat paper again - if you can visualize the panel's transformation from flat to curved you are already half way there. Realizing that most all shaping is simply adding the appropriate amount of shrinking or stretching you'll find out that the panels ALMOST shape them selves. I'm NOT suggesting I am very good at this. BUT I have had it happen and I was literally standing there in amazement that the part "shaped itself" so easily.
In reality I simply followed the paper pattern pretty close and the metal had no other reason to not flow into position.
I think the general style behind lots of panel beating (wheeling
etc) is to form/shape the part in general - small accents can be added later when the orientation is already close. LARGE accents might be easier to address in the preliminary forming.
Of course the "other" area to consider is acessability - will the feature to be added really be accessable (with your available tooling) after you have added the main shape. SOmetimes this just means tweaking a tool or even making a special one off tool. I ended up making a "extra narrow" lower anvil and holder for my ewheel especially to wheel in the corner radii of an already shaped panel. In this case the "problem" presented the "solution" - you know you sit ther eand say "if I only had a narrower anvil....." or "If I only had an offset_____ gizmo..."
The "Metalshapers" as well as the "Metalshaping" groups on Yahoo have fellas that are FAR more knowledgeable than myself and are willing to help us fledglings - not to mention the MSA website has LOTS of member albums which often outline a project's construction - be it tooling (ewheels, planishing hammers, helve hammers, pullmax type tooling, hand tooling, hand hammers, yoders type hammers etc etc) I believe their website is www.metalshapers.com
I even snuck in an album or two there.
So whacha makin' ???
Re: Question for Jacin
UKMXER,
it sound like you may have to much pressure, but thats ok you can flatten it
back out, yes aluminum will work harden and annealing will help.
try www.metalshapers.org
in yaho groups try metalshapers and metalshaping
there is nothing like trying out a new tool and finding out,
that you need to learn how to use it? don't give up it isn't hard
but not just anyone can do it, it takes practice!!!!
Good luck!
it sound like you may have to much pressure, but thats ok you can flatten it
back out, yes aluminum will work harden and annealing will help.
try www.metalshapers.org
in yaho groups try metalshapers and metalshaping
there is nothing like trying out a new tool and finding out,
that you need to learn how to use it? don't give up it isn't hard
but not just anyone can do it, it takes practice!!!!
Good luck!
clueless near st.louis
Reply to Oldgoaly
Hey up,
I laugh loudly at your last comment.
You were correct. I need to shape metal and I saw the reference to an english wheel. So I made one from scrap, suprised as hell when it worked.
And now I stand in front of it wondering how it works.
But, fortunately I have the forum pages, I hope to aquire enough knowlege to get the shapes I am looking for.
Thanks for the links and the advice
Ukmxer
I laugh loudly at your last comment.
You were correct. I need to shape metal and I saw the reference to an english wheel. So I made one from scrap, suprised as hell when it worked.
And now I stand in front of it wondering how it works.
But, fortunately I have the forum pages, I hope to aquire enough knowlege to get the shapes I am looking for.
Thanks for the links and the advice
Ukmxer