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Shrinking Die for Air Planisher

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 3:13 pm
by tphaake
Has anyone had any luck with making shrinking dies for a home made air planisher?

I have built an air planisher and have been playing with it using my own home made dies which do a job of strecthing and or smoothing the surface. I see the design of the hammer face of a body man's shrinking hammer and wonder if that is one possible way of making a die head.

Any ideas??

Re: Shrinking Die for Air Planisher

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 6:20 pm
by Jacin
Hi Tim, I too homebuilt aplanishing hammer.....maybe we can exchange tips???? Any chance you could post a pic???? I would love to see your hammer. Are you using FULL RADII dies or did you add FLATS????

As for your question - No I haven't seen anything like those adapted to a planishing hammer - I have RARELY seen anyone actually talk GOOD about those period. I guess in theory it might work - bu tit might just as easily make a mess of things especially at any HIGH SPEED operation - - just a guess.

I know that KENT WHITE sells some shrinking dies for a planishing hammer - I think he reccomends a decent sized air motor (5x or better) I just can't remember for certain. I sorta get the feeling that his dies sucess in use is 1/2 the DIES themselves and 1/2 the METHOD of which he thouroughly describes. My impression was a sorta of - method to create the "TUCK" and then his "special" dies to hammer it down. Much like hand shrinking a tuck but using the hammer to make it FASTER - I also get the impression he is using a "special" material to prevent further stretching of the metal. His website ---do a search on the "TINMAN" or "TINMAN TECH".

SO far I use my Pullmax and Nibbler Baby for shrinking using the standard homebrew "THUMBNAIL" dies.

I hope this helps????

Re: Shrinking Die for Air Planisher

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:18 pm
by oldgoaly
Tim & Jacin
using the thumbnail dies( like a yoder) will work on a planishing hammer if you can
keep the dies from rotating. The Kent White dies work like regular dies, not thumbnails let me explain what the difference is. thumbnail raise and hammer
down metal, and they shrink by stack shrinking easier to show than explain,
now the KW way is using the dies to hammer down what tucks that pop up
when forming, if you are using your dies to make a bowl(bowl is easiest example)
as you raise the center the edges develope ruffles/tucks/puckers what ever
you want to call them, and using the same dies( with a little english and your
tongue stuck out just right just kidding) you hammer them flat, now with with
my pullmax i generally back off the lower dies just a hair and tip it to get max
effect, but with the plastic in KW's dies he says he get maximun shrink, in other
words they dont hit as hard as regular steel dies. in 5 minutes i can show exactly
how to do it, but is not the easiest to explain in words. now would i spend the money for KW dies(no) would i make thumbnails for a phammer do that before
spending any money. but no matter how you put a pucker/tuck/ruffle in it you can hammer it out and the phammer will work metalshapers Ron Brown has
a set for his phammer and i am using RB's description to relay how they work.
i found this out when playing with my pullmax when i got it 8-9yrs ago, thought everyone knew this? but some of the big name(well in their minds) dont understand how it can work but it does, is as efficient as thumbnail dies no but alot cheaper.
hope this helps if you would like to see a short video(10-15sec) i could put one
on metalshapers(Joel knows how to work the camera now)

take care!

oh woe is me and my Cubbies

Re: Shrinking Die for Air Planisher

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:30 am
by Jacin
Hi Terry!
I wasn't suggesting Kent's dies were Thumbnails - I actually tried to suggest otherwise - I guess my description wasn't so good. <frown>

If I understand your last comments correctly - are you talking about some "other" type of dies - or Kent's type - or simply "standard" dies with extra clearance??? I am sorta lost there.
I have yet to do any serious shrinking with my Phammer so I am curious as to your video????

I do have one more question??? Why do you suggest Thumbnail dies are so expensive - I get the impression ALL the dies are expensive UNLESS you are cheap like me and make them !!!!!! <grin>

AS for the BIG NAME guys - I figure only about 1 out of 10 are as good as they think they are. BUT then again they're all better than me!!!! (at least for now - <smile>)


Re: Shrinking Die for Air Planisher

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:26 am
by tphaake

Well my homebrew air planisher uses the brute "air chipper hammer" that Harbor Freight sells. It weighs in something like 17 lbs and uses a .68 shank. I purchased a few of the chissels that fit the gun and cut the chissel part off. Then I machined a cup to hold various types of material. I have a round steel insert and a few different plastic, hard rubber, and other materials to put into the cup. This is sorta like KW's "Flow Forming" tooling for his air planisher. I do not know what I am doing but playing at this point. I have never witnessed this kind of metal forming and so far have been to cheap to buy a video.

I want to try to play with any type of additions that will allow me to shrink metal. I have the color glossys for the Eckhold line. Expensive. They show their "heads" but do not show the "insides" and or what makes the metal do what it does. Could they be using some type of "thumnail" process??


Re: Shrinking Die for Air Planisher

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:33 am
by tphaake
Jacin, Terry,

I screwed up with making a reply post to my original message so I got this all out of sync. Sorry.

I also have a Famco 53A - 8 ton punch press. Just had to drag it home since it was free. It is in super nice condition. Stands about 6 foot tall and if cleaned up would look almost new. Paint is perfect. Anyway I have toyed with the idea of making some kind of power hammer out of it like the Eckold. I am sure just about everything is wrong with this idea but what else is left for the future of this machine other than the smelter?? It is too nice for that. Bad part about it is there were no dies with it. The fellow showed me how to defeat the "single hit" function of it. It has maybe a 1-2 inch stroke. I don't really know for sure. I have not put power to it yet. It does have a decent throat to it which is why I brought it home. Larger than I have seen in the past on any small machines like this one.


Re: Shrinking Die for Air Planisher

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:32 pm
by Jacin
Hi Tim, Your planisher sounds NEAT! I have been told "those" types hit too HARD - but then again I have also seen several gusy use them with great sucess. A lot of the guys like the air rivet guns because they are so easy to "feather" the trigger. Sometimes I have found that to be desireable, but liek you I am still in the early stages of the learning process.

I too made a sorta of interchangeable cup design - it was VERY ENLIGHTENING - I am working almost entirely in aluminum right now so how things hit and mar or otherwise mark the surface of the metal is especially important to me.

I've never seen an Eckhold in person - but aren't those the serrated and or stippled dies that work by spring loading the dies sets apart (shrinking) or together (stretching) - the dies are mounted on ramped surfaces and when pressure is applied they either spread (ramps like a hill) or come together (ramps like a vallley) - I THINK that's how these getups are - but I am not certain. FWIW thats pretty much like the LOW BUCK shrinker stretchers that all the Tool GUYS sell now - which alot of good has been said about those.

Re: Shrinking Die for Air Planisher

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:33 pm
by Jacin
Thumbnails would be a piece of cake in this type of machine!!!

Re: Shrinking Die for Air Planisher

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:03 pm
by oldgoaly
i did not mention the eckhold type shrink dies, they are different, somewhere
i have an exploded view of these dies, if you are familiar with the Lancaster
style of shrinkers/streachers, the stipple on the eckholds are much finer, and they
work in 2 directions instead of one(confused yet?) Lancasters work on the
inclined plane as you apply pressure to the dies they move together (shrinker)
or away (streacher) now take that and use four seperate jaws when you
press down(down stroke of the machine) they move inward to the center, pulling
metal from 4 sides to the middle. does that make it a little clearer on eckhold dies?
i guess i am assuming you know about lancaster dies, the dies grab metal and
push it together, the dies a serated, similar to a vice grip. top and bottom dies hold the metal and the dies move on the inclined plane(ramp) this gripping of the metal
does leave marks, so do the stipple( tungsten caribide grit similar to sand paper)
clear as mud?
the KW dies have rubber/plastic to limit how hard they hit.
i'm not much of a plastic guy but i have hit steel with plastic and found most of the energy is absorbed by the plastic and not much gets done, heck i hit it i want the
metal to move, i like wooden mallets to spread the blow out, made them from old
fence posts.
Cheap!!!!! i have had good sucess with making dies, maybe i'm just lucky, but i hate
to spend money on tools when you can spend it on parts and peices.
look for the new project "ol' tetnous" (it will be a funny one)

the video of i have not done because i cant work the machine and the camera, but
Joel can work the cammera now so will do it sometime, have you seen him forming
and planishing on the pullmax? videos are in the metalshaper files section.
Take care!

Re: Shrinking Die for Air Planisher

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:09 pm
by oldgoaly
oh a couple of more things,
Expensive? have you seen how much CC or KW gets for dies?
and the chipper hammer??? may hit a little hard for planishing, will
work fine for forming. did i mention for fast forming(streaching)
that i use a air hammer with a about a 4" radius 1 3/8" round head
to move metal really fast, hitting into the sand bag or shot bag
for high crowned stuff only!!!!
take care!