Punch dies for hand-powered hydraulic press?

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davesisk
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Punch dies for hand-powered hydraulic press?

Post by davesisk » Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:49 pm

Hi guys:

One of the things I find myself doing periodically is cutting notches out of angle stock (usually 1/8" thick) so that I can bend it to make a lipped top frame for tables. (I cut 4 notches, bend it into a square, then weld the notched edges that now touch together. The notches I cut out are small 90-45-45 triangles. This gives me a square frame with an inner lip that you can drop a piece of slate into, if this description makes any sense. Think of any work table that you can drop a piece of plywood into, and it sits flush with the surface of the frame.). This is much quicker that what I started out doing, which is to cut each piece of angle stock at a 45 degree angle, then weld them all back together.

It's a better process, but still not good enough. It's difficult to cut this notch with my bandsaw (the bandsaw frame gets in the way). It's also difficult to get it accurate enough with a chop saw or by hand with a cutting disk on a grinder.

I'd really like to find some sort of reasonably inexpensive hydraulic press setup that can punch this little triangle out of the 1/8" thick angle stock. (Anything thicker, I can still do with other means since it's infrequent.) So, two questions:

1) How many tons of force would I need to do this? 10? 20? 50? How much force does it take to punch a hole in 1/8" stock? I'm thinking that perhaps one of the simple hydraulic presses made from a hand-operated hydraulic bottle jack would fit the ticket nicely.

2) Anyone know of a source for square punch dies that would fit one of these hydraulic presses? A square die would work perfectly...I'd just turn it 45 degrees relative to the angle stock, then punch the notch out using one corner. Max size angle stock would be 1" x 1" x 1/8", usually smaller (like 3/4" x 3/4"...that works really well with thick slate).

TIA!
Dave
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Doug_C
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Re: Punch dies for hand-powered hydraulic press?

Post by Doug_C » Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:05 am

Hi Dave,

Check out the angle iron notchers available from many sources.


Sample of a notcher

DC

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Scott
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Re: Punch dies for hand-powered hydraulic press?

Post by Scott » Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:36 am

Dave a old fashion a/o torch works pretty slick if set right. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/cool.gif"%20alt="[/img]

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davesisk
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Re: Punch dies for hand-powered hydraulic press?

Post by davesisk » Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:26 am

Well, I have a 30 amp plasma cutter, but again, I want something that's quick, accurate, and repeatable.

Thx,
Dave
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Scott
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Re: Punch dies for hand-powered hydraulic press?

Post by Scott » Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:16 am

I have a metal muncher with a notcher so I know about repeatability. I was just watching a guy at the welding store make mig carts with his torch setup. He was whipping them out real fast and tried the 65 ton metal muncher and thought it really needed a 92 degree die to do as well as his torch.He also just heated the metal before he bend the corner. He was a Thermal rep so he could of used any plasma cutter he wanted .Generally a o/a torch is pretty easy to follow a line over a plasma torch. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/cool.gif"%20alt="[/img]

Here is the carts he makes.

James C

Tons of Force

Post by James C » Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:48 pm

I think the formula for determining tons of force required is Punch dia. x Stock thickness x 80. 80 being the multiplier for mild steel, if I remember correctly.

So, 1 x .125 x 80 = 10 tons of pressure (I just used a 1" dia. for an example).

You can find the exact formula (If I'm wrong) on the web, I've looked it up before, and also (I think) how to apply this formula to square holes.

You might try di-acro's or Whitney's(?)web site for square punches.


Hope this helps,

James

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davesisk
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Re: Punch dies for hand-powered hydraulic press?

Post by davesisk » Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:10 pm

Wow...very nicely done. I suppose I could make a simple template for the plasma cutter, eh? Hmmmmm...

Thx,
Dave
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davesisk
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Re: Punch dies for hand-powered hydraulic press?

Post by davesisk » Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:39 pm

Great link...thanks! What exactly does the cropping machine do? Any idea what these Roper Whitney angle notchers typically sell for?

Thx,
Dave

Actually, I found some for sell on the Web...$770. Ouch!
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MikeC
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Re: Punch dies for hand-powered hydraulic press?

Post by MikeC » Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:32 am

I had to go back and fix a set of tables identical to what you are doing. My girlfriend had a set made up and the dope built them out of strap iron and then tacked pieces on the bottom to hold the corners and mount the legs. It was the biggest mess I have ever seen in my life. There wasn't a square joint anywhere on either table. They rocked, leaned, and had razor sharp dingleberries and saw burrs all over (she actually cut herself on one corner loading the tables out of her car). I had to completely take them apart and re-work them... after she paid $120 for the two 12x12" tables. I was severely POed.

I'm with Scott, break out the cutting torch. Once you get the hang of it, you can whack out angle corners like this even faster than a punch. You have to lay them out with a 45 degree square, but it's really fast after that is done.

You usually have to take more than just the 90 degree cut to get everything square. You are actually bending from the rear strap of the angle, so a true, accurate 90 degree punched cut won't allow the corner to close correctly. I like to over-cut with the torch and then heat and bend while I am cutting. I can make a square frame like this in a matter of a minute or two, especially if I gas weld it. No need to set up anything else, just change to a welding tip and grab a laquer coated one-hour martinizing rod. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/tongue.gif"%20alt="[/img]
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davesisk
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Re: Punch dies for hand-powered hydraulic press?

Post by davesisk » Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:33 pm

I'm still searching for a source of a stand-alone notcher die that you can use with a general purpose hydraulic press to notch angle iron. I haven't found one yet, but I've got a couple of email notes out. I'd be very surprised is no one makes such a thing!

Dave
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D_R
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Re: Punch dies for hand-powered hydraulic press?

Post by D_R » Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:34 am

Dave,

What you're looking for is made by Unipunch and Unittool. They both have stand-alone corner notchers. Much faster and cleaner than fooling around with torch or plasma. To get the wider angle some have mentioned take a second cut to widen the notch slightly.

One just sold on ebay #3826039169. I had my eye on that sale but never jumped in since a couple guys more or less got into a bidding war on it.

I have a smaller unit made for notching 1/8 x 1 angle, I could notch a dozen corners in the time it'd take a fire up my plasma or O/A torch. Mine is used in a punch press, press brake or hydraulic press depending on the quantity of parts I'm making.

I also have large square hole punches/dies for the punch press which will do the same thing. For quick setup you can't beat the stand-alone units though.

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Ries
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Re: Punch dies for hand-powered hydraulic press?

Post by Ries » Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:00 pm

My question has always been, "how do they really do this, assuming they can afford to buy the right tool?"

Well right tool for this job is a hydraulic ironworker with a notching station. A minimum of 40 tons or so would be good for up to 1/4" angle.
Figure $2500 and up for used, $5000 and up for new.
Or a dedicated hydraulic notcher- Haco, among others, makes some nice standalone notchers, but again we are talking more than a new Hyudai, here.

Next step down- buy a modular notcher from scotchman, which they make to fit their ironworkers- engineered, ready to pop into a scotchman ironworker, or into a hydraulic press, with a minimum of kludging.
www.scotchman.com

For plain old square punches, or round, slot, hex or oddball ones for that matter, try cleveland punch and die. Off the shelf, made from the right tool steel, accurately machined and heat treated.
www.clevelandpunch.com

ries

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