Cylinder castings

Home enthusiasts discuss their Foundry & Casting work.

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Harold_V
Posts: 17629
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: Cylinder castings

Post by Harold_V » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:36 pm

rrnut-2 wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:14 am
Wow Harold, that doesn't look like the same furnace that Liz and I brought out to you! Nice job.
Thanks, Jim. Yeah, it's drastically improved from the furnace you delivered a few years ago. The many years the furnace sat outside had done a lot of damage, but nothing that couldn't be reversed with some tender loving care. I did a huge amount of work on it, including replacing the top (which was badly broken). Luckily, I had several sheets of the asbestos that was used originally. Mine were a different thickness, but the three pieces combined were only about ¼" thinner than the original. It turned out exceedingly well as far as I'm concerned. I took pictures along the way and will eventually post on the rebuild. I think you'll like what you see. I cut no corners.
Did you use non-conductive hydraulic hoses on the cylinders between the fittings on the cylinder connecting to the rest of the hydraulic system? Only needs to be 6-10" but it breaks the circle.
I'm just now working on the hydraulics, and that's a question I would have asked of you before making the final decisions. Thanks for the information. It will be dead easy to use a short length of isolating hose on both circuits. I had discarded the original "plumbing" because of its dreadful condition. The tubing had rusted through in several locations, so it was a real mess. I found a couple flow restrictors for a decent price on Ebay, which I now have in my possession, and I am fortunate to have acquired, way back when I lived in Utah, a huge assortment of ¼" 316 stainless Parker compression hydraulic fittings from which I can pick almost all the fittings I'll need to connect the cylinders to the pump. The local hydraulics guy said that compression fittings would work perfectly well, which really simplifies the tubing work. And I'm fortunate to have a Parker ¼" tubing bender, something I acquired when I was running my machine shop many years ago.
You wouldn't have had a problem with the rebar if the bar was not wired together. Our foundry floors had rebar, but the bar had fiberglass
spacers glued between the bars so there was no electrical contact. Remember, if you have complete circle, you have an electrical path for
the induction to start heating things up.
I wish I'd have known more about this topic when I installed the floor, way back in '97, if I recall correctly. Unfortunately, the rebar is tied at every intersection, and to add to my concern, the hydronic heating is tied to the rebar (kept it in place until the concrete was poured). I don't know to what degree the hydronic hose conducts, but it has an aluminum oxygen barrier between layers of rubber, but I don't know how much resistance the rubber has. I still have some random pieces, so I'll take a reading, if for no other reason, to answer my curiosity. It's deep in the 6¼" floor, however, and a reasonable distance from the bottoms of the furnaces so I'm hopeful that it won't be a problem. So many things to consider!

Thanks again for all your help in this project, Jim.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

Harold_V
Posts: 17629
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: Cylinder castings

Post by Harold_V » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:49 pm

NP317 wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:17 am
Impressive, Harold.
It looks like either furnace will pour into the space between them, which will be a sand bed?
Correct, but the molds won't get poured there, that space, which will be sand filled, is intended for use in transferring the molten metal to a ladle from either furnace. The ladle, which will be carried by the jib crane I built, will allow me to then go to the area where the flasks will be poured. It's the area in front of the power supply.
Compact design, nicely made.
I had to wrestle with the design. My original plans were for a single furnace, which wasn't much of a problem, but when Jim donated the smaller furnace (which is actually the larger capacity furnace, therefore very welcome), I had to make some decisions. While my shop is pretty large, I'm running out of space rapidly, due in part to having added things that weren't planned (like the second furnace and the Haas CNC mill). Space is now at a premium, and I still have to build an oil fired furnace for non-ferrous.
Will there be a lift to get heavy flasks/molds into and out of the pour space?
The jib crane I built covers the entire area, so I'll be able to place molds without issue, and, hopefully, pour without issue. I have yet to decide how I'll cover the concrete floor in the casting area, but I need to isolate the pouring area surface from potential spills of molten metal. I'm thinking a sand bed, but how I'll contain it is yet to be determined.
I'm trying to visualize your functional setup.
In due time I'll likely post on the setup, but right now it's not anywhere near being functional. Mean time, if you happen to be traveling north and have some time to spare, feel free to stop by. I can provide driving instructions which would make it relatively easy for you. We're 14½ miles east of I-5, so it's a little out of your way.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

rrnut-2
Posts: 489
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:40 pm
Location: New Hampshire

Re: Cylinder castings

Post by rrnut-2 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:02 pm

With the setup that you made for the furnace stand, you will be fine. It isn't like you are dealing with the larger furnaces that we have. That
setup looks great, by the way. Sand works really well as long as it is contained. If is not contained, you will have a slipping hazard, especially
when a little metal is spilled, you wind up with BB's everywhere.

I don't know if I mentioned this earlier, but make sure all of your cooling hoses are non-conductive also. I learned by experience. We had a hose failure one night, no replacements in stock, so I went down to the local auto parts store and got heater hose. This was for the 5000# pot which had
what is called a split coil. One coil, two water zones with a "jumper" hose between the two zones. Nothing like watching the melter turn up the power to 900kw and watching a hose catch fire with a full pot of metal!!!

Jim B

Harold_V
Posts: 17629
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: Cylinder castings

Post by Harold_V » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:43 am

We talked about the cooling hoses quite a while ago, and the news (for me) was not good. I had replaced all of them with heater hose, just as you did. It conducts like crazy! I have not yet replaced it, but it's on the "to do" list. Right now I'm trying to deal with the hydraulic system and have begun working on the leads as well. I was fortunate to have one lead included when I acquired the power supply, but it's much longer than it needs to be. The ends were of no use to me, as one appears to have been run over by something heavy, and the other doesn't have the proper fitting for the furnace. I'm going to use the electrical cable, but will make all new components, including the hose, which is rather hard at this point. Has to be more than 25 years old, as I've owned it that long and it was old when I got it.

Ajax had provided me with the required print, so I know what to do to make new leads. Same problems as other hoses---they must be non-conductive, and the cost per foot is staggering. Been quoted as much as $8, and it's only 3/4". I can get hose for less, and it tests fine for conductivity, but it's also thinner wall. As I'm dealing with 400 volts, I don't know if it would be a good idea to reduce wall thickness when the hose is subject to exposure and, possibly, abrasion. I'll keep searching until I know more.

Checked today on non-conductive hydraulic hoses. Doesn't appear to be anything out of the ordinary, although I was informed that they are, typically, lower in strength (3,000 PSI), but the pump I have has a valve limited to only 2,500 psi, so I don't think there's a problem.

This entire project has been a great learning experience, one I am really enjoying. It's really fun to see what was a junk furnace (the one you so kindly provided) turned back in to a good and functional piece of gear.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

Russ Hanscom
Posts: 1556
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:10 pm
Location: Farmington, NM

Re: Cylinder castings

Post by Russ Hanscom » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:17 am

Random thought; Electrical utility boom trucks have non conductive hoses so an accidental contact with the line will not result in a bad event. Might mention that to the hydraulic supply place and see it they know what is supplied for that application. I know some hydraulic hoses are made with non metallic braid, but do not know if they are rated as non conductive.

Harold_V
Posts: 17629
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: Cylinder castings

Post by Harold_V » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:44 pm

Russ, according to the guy I talked with at a hydraulic supply in Chehalis, yesterday when I was in town, non-conductive hose is made with non-metallic braid, and is the reason they are restricted in pressure capacity. Turns out it's not at all uncommon, although my limited exposure to the hydraulics world didn't know that.

One thing I have learned is that you can't judge the conductivity of a hose by its color, at least when it's black. They all tend to look the same, but some offer unreasonably low resistance, while others appear to be a truly non-conductor. I suspect that carbon black plays a role in the conductivity for those that offer lower resistance.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, my friend.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

hoppercar
Posts: 199
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Re: Cylinder castings

Post by hoppercar » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:53 am

I think I will just tig weld, and build up my cylinders out of steel, like I have done all my others. getting a foundry to pour castings anymore is nothing short of a hassle

DavidF
Posts: 265
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 12:28 pm
Location: Delaware

Re: Cylinder castings

Post by DavidF » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:32 pm

hoppercar wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:53 am
I think I will just tig weld, and build up my cylinders out of steel, like I have done all my others. getting a foundry to pour castings anymore is nothing short of a hassle
What is the size/ weight of the casting??

skyloop440
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:23 pm
Location: colorado

Re: Cylinder castings

Post by skyloop440 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:41 pm

Clarksville foundry in Tennessee specializes in green sand and loss pattern castings in grey iron and ductile irons. I have used him a couple times good castings at a pretty good price for one offs. example I had a complete set of cylinders cast, blocks, heads, pistons steam chests and tops for $350.00 bucks about 6 years ago, just had (6) 4" wheels cast in ductile iron was $140.00 so prices have gone up. I contact the owner if your interested let me know and all get his contact info to you
Matt

skyloop440
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:23 pm
Location: colorado

Re: Cylinder castings

Post by skyloop440 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:03 pm

There a little bigger than the Gene Allen Chloe cylinders I am making a porter 0-4-0T and I wanted cylinders that set at an angle and had a bigger bore. There buried at the moment but if memory serves they had a 2" bore cored at 1 1/2" and a 2 1/2" stroke so about 3 1/2" long probably weigh 35 to 40 pounds with heads and steam chest parts.

rrnut-2
Posts: 489
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:40 pm
Location: New Hampshire

Re: Cylinder castings

Post by rrnut-2 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:09 pm

Harold, I looked up Clarksville Foundry. Interesting place. If you watch the video for the foundry, look for the green 3 door enclosure in the back ground. This is an Inductotherm Powertrak 250, 250Kw induction power supply. The investment casting foundry had 5 of these, 2 Powertrak 175, and a
Powertrak 900. I was one of two guys that repaired these electronically. The furnace that is shown in the video is that same type that we used and is still used today at the same foundry. The 900Kw unit, used a steel shell, hydraulic tilt furnace. They now have several Dualtrak 750's that run two 2000lbs furnaces at once.

Jim B

Harold_V
Posts: 17629
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: Cylinder castings

Post by Harold_V » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:24 am

Thanks, Jim. I found the site and looked at one video. I'll get back to them as time allows until I find the one you mentioned. Anything I can view that will help me better understand induction melting is always welcome.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

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