Engineers really know their stuff

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SteveM
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Re: Engineers really know their stuff

Post by SteveM » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:45 pm

It used to be that companies would build stuff to not break. Now with computers, we can more accurately predict how cheap to make the product so that the price point, cost of manufacturing and cost of warranty repairs creates maximum profits.

Not sure that they factor in how many customers abandon them.

All my Craftsman purchases these days are at flea markets and estate sales.

Steve

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SteveHGraham
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Re: Engineers really know their stuff

Post by SteveHGraham » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:11 pm

The history of computers is going to end up looking like one person's history of heroin use. At first, it seems great. Then the bad effects come, and you find you're a prisoner who can't let go and escape.

I'm tweeting this.
Every hard-fried egg began life sunny-side up.

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NP317
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Re: Engineers really know their stuff

Post by NP317 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:02 am

I'm caught inside my computer........
~RN

mikechoochoo
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Re: Engineers really know their stuff

Post by mikechoochoo » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:38 am

I know this is an old thread but I have one for you. The PT Cruiser ! To change the timing belt you have to remove the right front tire, remove the fender, remove the suspension, remove the inner fender, support the engine and remove the engine mount, and then you can remove the covers and replace the belt. $1500 labor for a $50 belt!

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BigDumbDinosaur
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Re: Engineers really know their stuff

Post by BigDumbDinosaur » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:16 pm

mikechoochoo wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:38 am
I know this is an old thread but I have one for you. The PT Cruiser ! To change the timing belt you have to remove the right front tire, remove the fender, remove the suspension, remove the inner fender, support the engine and remove the engine mount, and then you can remove the covers and replace the belt. $1500 labor for a $50 belt!
That's quite typical of most front-wheel drive cars. Said cars are designed to be economical to assemble, not economical to repair.
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BadDog
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Re: Engineers really know their stuff

Post by BadDog » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:24 pm

That's not really too excessive for modern front drive transverse engines. The only thing in your description that's fairly uncommon is "remove the suspension", though I expect that just means disconnecting upper strut mount. Most of them are going to have a similar process.

You could always get a classic Ferrari. I read recently that the predecessors of the 360 required disassembling the entire back of the car, and then removing the engine and transaxle to "replace a belt". I don't recall if that was accessory belt (did they have them?) or timing belt, but changing that belt was said to cost more than buying a new compact car (or something like that). But I guess if you can afford a Ferrari as a driver, that's probably not a huge issue.
Russ
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John Hasler
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Re: Engineers really know their stuff

Post by John Hasler » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:35 pm

Sometimes you need to take a close look at these repair procedures. Seems like every second procedure in the shop manuals for my old tractors starts with "First split the tractor". Then it lists the special-purpose stands and fixtures that they expect you to do that with and which, combined with the dealerships flat smooth shop floor and overhead lifts, make it a five minute job. For the guy working alone in the back of his dirt-floor machine shed, though, there is often another approach that the factory-trained mechanic would dismiss as "doing it the hard way".

Then there are solutions that make factory mechanics just about pee themselves, such as drilling holes and grinding clearances...

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NP317
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Re: Engineers really know their stuff

Post by NP317 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:14 am

All reasons I love my '73 Datsun 240Z.
Everything about the engine that you need to get to is all on the right side and openly available.
If I lean over the fender too far I fall right through to the floor below.
Contrast that with my Brother's Jaguar: Toss a penny in the open hood and it never makes its way out.
The joys of Engineering For Service.
~RN

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BadDog
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Re: Engineers really know their stuff

Post by BadDog » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:21 am

Agreed. But in this case it's not uncommon for a motor mount to attach to the block in what would be inside the belt loop or some such. So unless you're inclined to cut and restitch a timing belt like a SB lathe, you have to support the motor to remove the mount. That type of thing is so common they even make shade-tree friendly cross beams that mount on the strut towers (usually) to lift and support (why am I remembering an old bra commercial?) the block while work is being done. And then there are the fasteners that take a tremendous amount of finagling to get out, with no hope in [sensored] of ever getting it back in. Count yourself lucky if you can get to it by removing the strut and inner fender. It could be like basically any top-side service on a Ford Diesel of the last nearly 2 decades. For that, you have to lift the cab a minimum of (I believe) 6-8 inches because the back 2 cylinders are under the window/dash with only inches to spare to the body shelf above. Best if you just take it off completely...

The biggest problem is as stated earlier. They are build for economical and efficient assembly, generally with not even a second glance for service. In the Ford example, I expect the rolling chassis is complete with drive train before the body goes on last. Worked good for them, probably added $20 per truck to their margine, screw the buyers. And service techs don't too much care because those are solid book hours. That often makes the path of least resistance dropping the entire from subframe out IF you have the option, much like your splitting tractors example. Without those options, that can mean a lot of sweat, misery, and busted knuckles IFF the job goes well and smoothly. Yeah, that'll happen.
Russ
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liveaboard
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Re: Engineers really know their stuff

Post by liveaboard » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:25 am

Yesterday, I bought a Mercedes coupe with a 2.3 liter supercharged engine, 194HP [allegedly]
It's got 21 years old, 220,000 miles on it, and it runs like new.
Ok, it doesn't idle like new but you can't have everything.
And it gets pretty good fuel economy. Real people report 34Mpg.

So hats off to the engineers who built it.

The ride and handling is amazing.
Soon, it will give me trouble. That is known and accepted.
clk230 mat 2.jpg

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BigDumbDinosaur
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Re: Engineers really know their stuff

Post by BigDumbDinosaur » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:48 am

liveaboard wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:25 am
Yesterday, I bought a Mercedes coupe with a 2.3 liter supercharged engine, 194HP [allegedly]
It's got 21 years old, 220,000 miles on it, and it runs like new.
Ok, it doesn't idle like new but you can't have everything.
And it gets pretty good fuel economy. Real people report 34Mpg.

So hats off to the engineers who built it.

The ride and handling is amazing.
Soon, it will give me trouble. That is known and accepted.
clk230 mat 2.jpg
German cars seem to have higher-than-average issues with their electrical systems.
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dly31
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Re: Engineers really know their stuff

Post by dly31 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:29 am

It goes back a long way. I remember my Dad figuring out how to use a hole saw on the firewall to replace leaking freeze plugs in the rear of engine blocks. This was for Chrysler products in the 40's. He also did the same thing in the floor pan to check and add transmission fluid in a 50's Packard.
Don Young

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