Tool Abuse

The Photo Album is a place for "Shop Shots" as well as pictures and descriptions of projects that we are working on. Show off your Shops, Machines, and your Projects!

Moderators: Harold_V, WJH

Russ Hanscom
Posts: 1556
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:10 pm
Location: Farmington, NM

Tool Abuse

Post by Russ Hanscom » Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:37 pm

Here is a (was a) decent Brown and Sharpe horizontal mill with universal table. It was oiled and in good? condition when placed here just a year ago. Not even NM weather is a respecter of tools. The arbors with a full complement of bushings and a cutter or two are nearby. Probably too late to salvage.
Attachments
bs mill.jpg

dly31
Posts: 1052
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:29 pm
Location: Northeast Alabama

Post by dly31 » Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:57 pm

Might not be nearly as bad as it looks if you enjoy restoration, which I do.

Don Young

Harold_V
Posts: 17618
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Post by Harold_V » Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:01 am

dly31 wrote:Might not be nearly as bad as it looks if you enjoy restoration, which I do.
You can make it pretty again, but the essence of a machine tool resides in its manufactured quality. Once rusted, in spite of the fact that the machine can be made operational again, it is highly unlikely that the precision remains, nor its intended usefulness. A shiny paint job makes absolutely no difference to a machine tool, aside from aesthetics.

That does not mean that the machine won't make chips. This discussion is one that has no end, for the ultimate purpose of the owner of such a machine may not be in keeping with the expectations of others. Some are happy to have a machine that will move metal, whether it will hold five thou, or not. Others require (demand, really) that a machine be capable of doing fine work, and would find a machine that can't nothing more than a nuisance.

So then, being on the side that expects machines to have reliable precision, I agree with Russ. Rust penetrates steel as deeply as the surface buildup. You can expect the overarms to have been pitted and reduced in size, just for starters. It is also possible that bearings and seals have been compromised by water having penetrated. I've experienced that very thing in restoring a shaper head for my Bridgeport.

Personally, I avoid rusted machines, but then I also expect a great deal from those that I operate. YMMV, and rightfully so! I have no idea of the level of precision you expect from machine tools. Makes all the difference in the world!

Harold

Russ Hanscom
Posts: 1556
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:10 pm
Location: Farmington, NM

Post by Russ Hanscom » Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:03 pm

I took a close look at it with thought of dragging the arbors home in case someone else wanted them, but the taper surfaces are already a bit rough to the touch so there is more than just discoloration by rust. I an not nearly as fussy as Harold, but I will pass. Too bad as I would like to have a universal table machine.

97r82
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:04 am

Re: Tool Abuse

Post by 97r82 » Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:20 pm

I have the same machine. Too bad this one is being abused. Is the door still on the mill leg where you store the gears to the dividing head? Mine was missing.

User avatar
wsippola
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:21 am
Location: Trenton, On

Re: Tool Abuse

Post by wsippola » Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:55 pm

I used to have the same machine. Dual controls, so you can stand in front or behind the table. Feed selection on the fly with just a crank of the speed handle to the next gear. Rapids in all three directions. It's a pretty nice mill to run. I liked the feeds so much that I built a drive for my vertical mill to simulate it with a VFD and 3ph motor - just push a button for rapid.

Mine was indoors, but had not been used in years due to a blown bearing on the top of the knee screw. Everything but the internal gearing to the spindle was frozen due to condensation causing rust. It cleaned up fine, and for the most part the rust doesn't seem to get to the ways as they've been soaked in oil for years. It was a project getting the machine going, and I mounted a vertical head to it which took some time as well.

As far as rust and precision, well it won't help, but it doesn't necessarily hurt precision either. If the ways still retain their full original shape, the table and saddle will still move as they did before the rust. Depending on the amount of pitting, it may certainly wear quicker, but from the rusty machines I've seen, the pitting actually constitutes a small portion of the overall way surface. I would wager that in the grand majority of rusted machines, the loss of accuracy is due to wear from years of use, not due to so much rust that the ways no longer provide complete guidance.

farrviewsouth
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:43 am
Location: Northwood,NH

Re: Tool Abuse

Post by farrviewsouth » Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:01 pm

IF you decide not to restore it, I am looking for a number two outboard arbor support. Sure would be interested in one

User avatar
10KPete
Posts: 390
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:29 pm
Location: Nordland, WA, USA

Re: Tool Abuse

Post by 10KPete » Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:06 pm

I view rust pitting the same way as hand scraped surfaces. As long as most of the surface is good for a bearing, it' good to
go. Look closely at that old mill and rub the surfaces with a bit of fine sandpaper. It may surprise you.

Pete
Just tryin'

Harold_V
Posts: 17618
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: Tool Abuse

Post by Harold_V » Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:44 pm

10KPete wrote:I view rust pitting the same way as hand scraped surfaces. As long as most of the surface is good for a bearing, it' good to
go. Look closely at that old mill and rub the surfaces with a bit of fine sandpaper. It may surprise you.

Pete
The concept of precision being the value added to machine tools is often lost on some individuals, so rust is considered as inconsequential. That simply is not true, although, for some, it may be. I can't speak for them, nor what they may expect from machines, but I certainly can speak for myself.

While one is free to believe what ever they please, the harsh reality about rust is that it isn't consistent, much the same way wear isn't consistent. Rust changes a machine, never for the good. Well protected surfaces often remain unchanged, while those with rust lose material. That results in the loss of ability for a fine machine tool to perform the purpose for which it was built, which is not simply to make chips, but to make parts to design.

The big problem with the logic of most people is that it is assumed that so long as a machine is capable of making chips, it's still useful. For those of us who have worked in the trade and understand the difficulty of holding tolerance when a machine is well worn or otherwise incapable, we often see things from a totally different perspective. That's particularly true if one has a high precision background, as opposed to those who have held jobs in a facility where QC is often non-existent. In fact, the first job I held after leaving the missile industry was just such a job. I had a rather difficult time adjusting to the idea that anything that could be assembled would be considered acceptable.

A rusted machine is a changed machine. It may or may not serve the intended purpose, and restoring such a machine to useable condition often is far more costly than a new machine. Invest in rusted machines only if you are able to live with flaws.

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

User avatar
10KPete
Posts: 390
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:29 pm
Location: Nordland, WA, USA

Re: Tool Abuse

Post by 10KPete » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:52 pm

I agree, Harold, but what I'm saying is that unless the rust and pitting have really destroyed most of the important surfaces
the machine can usually be saved. I cases of lighter attack the machine may only require a good cleaning to make it useable.
I dare say that most folks don't need or couldn't use a really super precision machine. But if they do then that's not the
machine for them. That mill will require some serious work.

Pete
Just tryin'

Harold_V
Posts: 17618
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: Tool Abuse

Post by Harold_V » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:42 am

10KPete wrote:I agree, Harold, but what I'm saying is that unless the rust and pitting have really destroyed most of the important surfaces
the machine can usually be saved.
That's where things get sticky. What constitutes a destroyed surface is the very point I've tried to address. Some folks are not the least bit discerning, so if rust is removed, regardless of the amount of damage to the precision surfaces involved, to them, the machine has been satisfactorily restored. Sadly, how a machine tool looks has nothing to do with how it performs. A freshly painted clapped out piece of rusted junk is still that----a rusted piece of junk. A pig with lipstick.

Machine tools that experience outdoor storage are subject to a myriad of problems, including water in gear housings and bearings.

You can usually "restore" (a term I'm using very loosely) most any machine to the point of operation. That it will be able to be called upon for good work? That's a whole different subject. It's like I said. Making chips isn't the whole story.

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

User avatar
10KPete
Posts: 390
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:29 pm
Location: Nordland, WA, USA

Re: Tool Abuse

Post by 10KPete » Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:40 am

No argument here Harold. I think we're saying very much the same thing but I'm coming at it from a different angle.
I think what I should have said, in addition to the rest, was that from my view point I don't consider a rub down and
a coat of paint a rebuild, Neither do you. If the machine were to be truly rebuilt, assuming it could be, then it would
be good again. Anything less and it's an agricultural piece for roughly plowing stuff. Maybe behind a tractor!! But
there are folks out there that would use such a junker. I've seen a lot of dirt floor shops in barns with worse equipment.
At least the stuff was out of the rain.

It's just a shame to see good machines left to rot like that. I could have been easily saved.

Pete
Just tryin'

Post Reply