Electric drive locomotives

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Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1762
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Electric drive locomotives

Post by Glenn Brooks » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:16 pm

OK, so I know nothing about elective drives for scale locomotives- except some are 32 volt, others are 24 volt. That’s it...

My question is, could this motorcycle motor a possibility for repowering a 1000# locomotive to electric?

http://ev-propulsion.com/motorcycle-hub-motors.html

Thanks much,
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

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PRR5406
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Location: Eastern Maine

Re: Electric drive locomotives

Post by PRR5406 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:55 am

I'm going to guess at this, but given what is written in their advertisement, I'd say it will require constant cooling and may eventually fail. Something designed for heavy use in a confined space is a 24 volt motor from an electric wheelchair. Not only do they have the power, they're designed to work on pavement which can be rough or unevenly graded. On rails, they have plenty of power and torque. If you use the wheelchair stick control and computer electronics, they also spare your battery and help recharge as you head down grade.
Go with something proven and reliable.
Just my 2 cents, and while I'm no expert, this has been used very successfully by others. There are plenty of electrical engineers and "know it alls" who may chime in.
"Always stopping my train, and risking my ankles, with American made, New Balance sneakers."

tollefson500
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Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:12 pm

Re: Electric drive locomotives

Post by tollefson500 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:52 am

I don't have much experience besides recording part numbers and building one electric locomotive. I choose to use 2qty 300w electric scooter motors exactly like this (24 Volt 300 Watt MY1016 Electric Motor with 11 Tooth #25 Chain Sprocket (MY1016)) in my small freelanced "40-70 tonner" and a 100amp F/R motor controller from amazon (10-50V 100A 5000W DC Motor Engine Speed Controller for DC Brush Motor). So far it works well. I have gathered that many builders are using ME0708 PM-DC Motor, 24-48V, 8 hp cont, 15 hp pk or what use to be the ETEK briggs electric motors up to the 18hp electric motors and 4QD 300amp motor controllers. These motor setups are connected (gear reduction) to a main driveshaft below the pan and use a right angle gearbox tolomatic on the drive axles. Other or the same builders are moving to 24 Volt 750 Watt XYD-6B and 24 Volt 900 Watt XYD-13 mounted in the truck frames and chain driving them to the axles via a gear reduction. I haven't figured out what gear box people are using beside that they are tolomatic "tol-o-matic" right angle boxes. If someone would pop in with a part number that would be awesome. I hope this helps.
PS: don't over build it because you think its a heavy locomotive, its not really heavy and your never going to go fast unless you gear it incorrectly. I have been down this path.

Mr Ron
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Location: Vancleave, Mississippi

Re: Electric drive locomotives

Post by Mr Ron » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:07 pm

Go to WWW.surpluscenter.com for good deals on motors, gear boxes, gears, etc.
Mr.Ron from South Mississippi

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1762
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Electric drive locomotives

Post by Glenn Brooks » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:19 pm

Hi all, I have one or two really basic follow up questions, as I read these spec’s above. please confirm or correct me if I deduce the following:

A). Amperage variation in DC motors, controls the RPM of the motor - hence engine speed?

B). Wattage, basically determines max draw bar capacity of the loco...

If so, is there a rule of thumb that relates wattage (motor size) to max tractive effort, or gross train weight?? For example, a 300 watt motor would effectively pull how heavy a train consist...?

In my specific use case, I actually have a 50 year old, ride-in cab style, 1/3 scale, 12” ga electric center cab road switcher loco, badly in need of restoration. Today, It lacks the motor and most all electrical components - having been removed by persons unknown before I acquired it. I would use it to do ROW work around my small track - hauling landscaping stones and gravel ballast on flat cars up to say 7000 - 10000 pound max gross weight, plus haul the occasional passenger train of 4-5 cars with 20-30 people.
5A43EB44-C56C-4F1B-BDF1-B147CA7E0C4C.jpeg
I would like to restore it to running condition with an electric motor, in lieu of the original open air, overhead, suspended DC wiring system it originally ran with.

I’ve been scratching around for ideas how to best proceed with restoration. So, your comments are very helpful.

Thanks much,
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

tollefson500
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:12 pm

Re: Electric drive locomotives

Post by tollefson500 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:54 pm

I'm horrible for explaining and I'm sorry if this gets confusing.
Most modern Brushed or Brush-less DC motor controllers operate a PWM platform (https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/bl ... ation.html) This should get you up to speed on motor controllers.

To pick the motor needed for you locomotive, you need to calculate the required torque.
It is also ideal to find you max speed and wheel and drive line rpm's.
(https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/elec ... _1503.html)
(https://sciencing.com/calculate-needed- ... 31003.html)
When you have determined that requirement, you can find a hp/ Watt rating and then start hunting for a motor that fits that range.

This is just speculation from here on.
20,000(lbs train load) * 0.002(friction) = 40 ftlbs needed roughly no other factor are being taken in.
Motor controller wise you need by guessing is a 4QD 300amp or a "golf cart controller"
You are probably given enough space to run 48v system which is better because if you can run higher voltage you will need less amps to do the work.
Motenergy ME1003 PMDC Motor, 12-72V, 15.4 hp cont, 30.8 hp pk this creates about 23-45 ft lbs for torque
coupled with a 6:1 gear reduction on a 10" wheel max speed of 13mph and about 150 ft lbs at the wheels is available.
This is now probably overkill but I think it would work well for your application.
But if all this is wrong...some one please try to help with POSITIVE feedback because this is the method that I have applied to my build.

list of my recommended searches
https://www.4qd.co.uk/
https://www.electricmotorsport.com/
http://www.electricscooterparts.com/mot ... ratio.html
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/elec ... _1503.html
google: dc electric ev

Now I really gotta get back to work ha!!

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1762
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Electric drive locomotives

Post by Glenn Brooks » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:46 pm

Toleffson, thanks! I’ll read through your links. Looks like just the primer I need to better understand what questions to ask.

Much appreciated,
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

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chiloquinruss
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Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Chiloquin, Oregon

Re: Electric drive locomotives

Post by chiloquinruss » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:06 am

Another excellent source of goodies is:
https://electricscooterparts.com/
Your advantage in your restoration is going to be you have a lot of room for batteries. As a 'general' rule of thumb, a 36v motor will operate more efficiently than a 24v or 12v motor. Make sure the motor controller is heavy duty enough to operate at, at least 50% duty cycle. Also just my 2cents worth, spend wisely. Russ

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