Anyone done this? Any pictures?
Flathead Six As Motive Power?
Moderator: Harold_V
Flathead Six As Motive Power?
Curious about this. Probably something I would not do because of the weight. How could a flathead 6 with a 3 speed manual transmission be used in a ride on train. Lets say it's a 24" gauge, 4 wheel critter. How would this work? How would a manual trans. work in a train?
Anyone done this? Any pictures?
Anyone done this? Any pictures?
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steamin10
- Posts: 6712
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Re: Flathead Six As Motive Power?
In railroad history, there were many small locomotives that were built with truck transmissions, and Automotive engines of various types. Particularly during the war years, when steels were restricted and rationed, and railroads made do with some things that were pretty odd, just because they could move some cars. Most of these small locos were scrapped at the end of the WWII Era, and diesel-electric building started in earnest, first in switchers, and then larger motive power to replace the aging and expensive steam giants. In most cases it was not technology, but simple cost moves that doomed steam. Holding a hot engine for the morning turn, VS turn the diesel off, go home, start it up in the morning, and run in 10 minutes.
Most small Gas motored engines were disadvantaged as they were too light, and the stresses of pushing, pulling, and backlash of heavy cars on light gear boxes, were a disaster waiting to happen. The larger and first Oil Electrics, were bigger but did not suffer from the mechanical lightweight drives of the mechanical critters. Many of the small locomotives had roller chain drives, that were easier to repair than direct truck axles, that failed with the stresses.
Search around the net, there are plenty of small critter, and larger locos of 0-4-0 class, in the late 30's and into the war years. CNJ, and Pennsylvania, IIRC.
Small industrial Critters are nearly as you describe. There was a pair at Heston, used in a brickyard, 3ft ga. When one of the flatheads seized, it was replaced with a newer OHV jeep motor, and it was a powerhouse, compared to the original. At one time, the two switchers push-me-pulled you, one car around the heavy grades. After the change, only that engine was used with one passenger car. ( I dont know the whole history of those two engines, as that is when I separated from the site.) Much luck on your quest. Cheers.
Most small Gas motored engines were disadvantaged as they were too light, and the stresses of pushing, pulling, and backlash of heavy cars on light gear boxes, were a disaster waiting to happen. The larger and first Oil Electrics, were bigger but did not suffer from the mechanical lightweight drives of the mechanical critters. Many of the small locomotives had roller chain drives, that were easier to repair than direct truck axles, that failed with the stresses.
Search around the net, there are plenty of small critter, and larger locos of 0-4-0 class, in the late 30's and into the war years. CNJ, and Pennsylvania, IIRC.
Small industrial Critters are nearly as you describe. There was a pair at Heston, used in a brickyard, 3ft ga. When one of the flatheads seized, it was replaced with a newer OHV jeep motor, and it was a powerhouse, compared to the original. At one time, the two switchers push-me-pulled you, one car around the heavy grades. After the change, only that engine was used with one passenger car. ( I dont know the whole history of those two engines, as that is when I separated from the site.) Much luck on your quest. Cheers.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.
Re: Flathead Six As Motive Power?
There are a lot of options, but you are going to have to buy some parts to go with your motor and trans. The wieght is not a problem, you will have trouble getting it to weigh enough.
You can use different methods, but the issue with miniature diesel locomtives is usually the; difference in height from the drive (motor and trans) to the driveline (the connection to the axles), and changeing the drive angle from lengthwise on the motor and transmission to the needed sideways angle of the axles & wheels.
If the flathead motor and trans can deal with the downward angle, you could angle the motor and trans downward to a single 90-degree gearbox mounted on one of the axles, then you can chain the axles together or put rods on the outside to connect the axles together, (the chain or the rods option is a classic Davenport option). That would be the most basic method, but the angle will give you trouble, so I would not do it.
Manual trans is not the way to go, using a clutch on a train is not the safest or easiest way to power the axles or add power smothly.
Most are built like this; 90-degree gearboxes on the axles, or axle, then a 4x4 (or forklift) transfer cases is used to move the driveline center up to a height that the motor and transmission can line up with. That is how the GE U18B is built at the Swanton. That will work if you have a long wheelbase. If your wheelbase is so short that the motor and trans can not fit between the two axles (or two trucks), you will have to raise the drive line further to get it high enough to meet the transmission.
You can use different methods, but the issue with miniature diesel locomtives is usually the; difference in height from the drive (motor and trans) to the driveline (the connection to the axles), and changeing the drive angle from lengthwise on the motor and transmission to the needed sideways angle of the axles & wheels.
If the flathead motor and trans can deal with the downward angle, you could angle the motor and trans downward to a single 90-degree gearbox mounted on one of the axles, then you can chain the axles together or put rods on the outside to connect the axles together, (the chain or the rods option is a classic Davenport option). That would be the most basic method, but the angle will give you trouble, so I would not do it.
Manual trans is not the way to go, using a clutch on a train is not the safest or easiest way to power the axles or add power smothly.
Most are built like this; 90-degree gearboxes on the axles, or axle, then a 4x4 (or forklift) transfer cases is used to move the driveline center up to a height that the motor and transmission can line up with. That is how the GE U18B is built at the Swanton. That will work if you have a long wheelbase. If your wheelbase is so short that the motor and trans can not fit between the two axles (or two trucks), you will have to raise the drive line further to get it high enough to meet the transmission.
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warmstrong1955
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Re: Flathead Six As Motive Power?
Why not use a torque converter like a newer Plymouth? ( the word newer is relative)
Never was around any with gas burners, but plenty with small Diesel engines set up that way.
Bill
Never was around any with gas burners, but plenty with small Diesel engines set up that way.
Bill
Today's solutions are tomorrow's problems.
Re: Flathead Six As Motive Power?
I believe this 5 ton 36" Plymouth is a 6 cyl flathead. It's located by the Great Dismal Swamp, South of Norfolk. It has two chains, one driving each axle. Not sure what the two lower cylindrical objects in the cab are - I was thinking brake actuators.
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Erskine Tramway
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Re: Flathead Six As Motive Power?
Mike Decker
Former Locomotive Engineer and Designer, Sandley Light Railway Equipment Works, Inc. and Riverside & Great Northern Railway 1962-77
BN RR Locomotive Engineer 1977-2014, Retired
BN RR Locomotive Engineer 1977-2014, Retired
Re: Flathead Six As Motive Power?
Lots of people have built commercial gas-mechanical locomotives in just about every gauge and every weight class. Its not unusual at all.
For what you have in mind, the National Amusement Device (NAD) Century Flyer amusement park locomotive is probably the best example. At 24” gauge (some are 30”) they weigh in at almost 4000 pounds and are able to haul a dozen loaded cars. They generally used a Ford 8N tractor motor, 3 sped trans, and a neat transfer case to bring the power from above the frame to below the frame with drive shafts then to each truck. I own such a locomotive so can provide design details if you are interested. Just send me an email to jrmay@monmouth.com if you would like some pictures.
I have the “remains” of a second two truck internal combustion locomotive which used pillow block based shafts above and below the frame with a chain connecting the two. Again, like the NAD, drive shafts went to each axle.
The above designs could be used in a 4 wheel critter as well.
As to running a mechanical locomotive, its no big deal. I have thousands of hours running a 7 ton Plymouth similar to the pictures shown in this discussion. Takes a little practice for a smooth shift and not jostling any passengers, but certainly doable and really of great fun. I learned how to drive stick on such a locomotive (from Keith Taylor) a very, very long time ago.
J.R. May
Wall, NJ
For what you have in mind, the National Amusement Device (NAD) Century Flyer amusement park locomotive is probably the best example. At 24” gauge (some are 30”) they weigh in at almost 4000 pounds and are able to haul a dozen loaded cars. They generally used a Ford 8N tractor motor, 3 sped trans, and a neat transfer case to bring the power from above the frame to below the frame with drive shafts then to each truck. I own such a locomotive so can provide design details if you are interested. Just send me an email to jrmay@monmouth.com if you would like some pictures.
I have the “remains” of a second two truck internal combustion locomotive which used pillow block based shafts above and below the frame with a chain connecting the two. Again, like the NAD, drive shafts went to each axle.
The above designs could be used in a 4 wheel critter as well.
As to running a mechanical locomotive, its no big deal. I have thousands of hours running a 7 ton Plymouth similar to the pictures shown in this discussion. Takes a little practice for a smooth shift and not jostling any passengers, but certainly doable and really of great fun. I learned how to drive stick on such a locomotive (from Keith Taylor) a very, very long time ago.
J.R. May
Wall, NJ
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Re: Flathead Six As Motive Power?
> Not sure what the two lower cylindrical objects in the cab are - I was thinking brake actuators.
If you are talking at the back of the transmission, those are simply bearing caps. Having been involved in rebuilding such a beast, the transmission is a neat piece of engineering with heavy straight cut gears. A lower shaft has bevel gears on it to eventually spin the drive 90 degrees so that the chains line up with the axles. Very cool arrangement.
As to the levers in the cab, the far right is the hand brake, the next should be the clutch, then the four speed shifter, and to the far left the F-N-R selector. A small lever in there someplace should be the throttle and then one for the spark arrest. Heavier versions have a foot pedal for the clutch, but once under way and when shifting, with some careful use of the throttle, there is no need to use the clutch. I had the opportunity to get real good at that back in the summer of ‘78. Damn that was a long time ago.
The attached is of the Pine Creek RR Plymouth here in NJ, taken back in the 1990s I guess. The steamer is the C&L #3L, Lady Edith, another engine that had been a blast to run.
And yes, I do have a soft spot for Plymouths.
J.R.
If you are talking at the back of the transmission, those are simply bearing caps. Having been involved in rebuilding such a beast, the transmission is a neat piece of engineering with heavy straight cut gears. A lower shaft has bevel gears on it to eventually spin the drive 90 degrees so that the chains line up with the axles. Very cool arrangement.
As to the levers in the cab, the far right is the hand brake, the next should be the clutch, then the four speed shifter, and to the far left the F-N-R selector. A small lever in there someplace should be the throttle and then one for the spark arrest. Heavier versions have a foot pedal for the clutch, but once under way and when shifting, with some careful use of the throttle, there is no need to use the clutch. I had the opportunity to get real good at that back in the summer of ‘78. Damn that was a long time ago.
The attached is of the Pine Creek RR Plymouth here in NJ, taken back in the 1990s I guess. The steamer is the C&L #3L, Lady Edith, another engine that had been a blast to run.
And yes, I do have a soft spot for Plymouths.
J.R.
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Re: Flathead Six As Motive Power?
I would think one of the little 3 or 4-cyl. Jap Diesels, Kubota or Yanmar, would make a good small loco engine...the exhaust would smell right anyway... 
Re: Flathead Six As Motive Power?
Thank you all. This was very informative. Not sure I would like to pursue this direction. I have an old 1959 Plymouth Savoy that has a flat head 6 and 3 speed trans that I have for sale and I was just toying with the idea of using the engine and trans if I can't sale the car. I think this may be too big a project using that engine.
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steamin10
- Posts: 6712
- Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 11:52 pm
- Location: NW Indiana. Close to Lake Michigan S. tip
Re: Flathead Six As Motive Power?
Post the car in Hemmings Motor News. List as a car, and for parts. There are few around for a restorer to find. Good luck.
PS. A savoy was our family car, and I learned my first driving skills in one in the late 60's before I graduated in 70.
PS. A savoy was our family car, and I learned my first driving skills in one in the late 60's before I graduated in 70.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.
Re: Flathead Six As Motive Power?
Now that you have said in effect, you`re not sure what you might do AND, you sign on as BRMRR24, are you actually IN the hobby and working on a Two foot gauge railroad?
You might be better off to sell the car-if in at least Fair shape and get some kind newer, smaller junk yard engine, trans and radiator all in one for a loco/critter.
I have an old 800 lb diesel loco with a Crosely 4 cylinder engine, torque converter, marine trans (I`m told) and a Plymouth type driveshaft band brake. This loco was used commercially in a Fairground and pulled Several Heavy cars and passengers.
So, I guess if you are Serious about building a Large train you can do it. Just see what`s available and Make it work!
chooch
You might be better off to sell the car-if in at least Fair shape and get some kind newer, smaller junk yard engine, trans and radiator all in one for a loco/critter.
I have an old 800 lb diesel loco with a Crosely 4 cylinder engine, torque converter, marine trans (I`m told) and a Plymouth type driveshaft band brake. This loco was used commercially in a Fairground and pulled Several Heavy cars and passengers.
So, I guess if you are Serious about building a Large train you can do it. Just see what`s available and Make it work!
chooch
BRMRR24 wrote:Thank you all. This was very informative. Not sure I would like to pursue this direction. I have an old 1959 Plymouth Savoy that has a flat head 6 and 3 speed trans that I have for sale and I was just toying with the idea of using the engine and trans if I can't sale the car. I think this may be too big a project using that engine.