Wheel turning method
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Wheel turning method
Hello All,
Looking for recommendations to determine the best method to turn some raw, 10” diameter (2” tread) wheel castings for a friend. The wheels need to be profiled to fit 12# rail.
The castings each have a 1” rough axle hole cast in the wheel blanks. However, I’ve discovered each axle bore is roughly 3/16” off center, from the edge the tread. Hence the outer edge of each wheel is out of round between 1/4” and 7/16” offset, when mounted on an axle stud in the lathe chuck. Way to much out of round to true up the profile, with the existing bore.
Also, The wheels are to large of diameter to mount on my faceplate or directly on the lathe chucks. So The only work holding I can use to turn each wheel profile is to hold the work on the aforememtioned axle stud - with a nut on the end to clamp tight against the chuck.
Iam thinking I need to center the wheels on the mill table, then properly rebore a correctly centered (larger) axle hole in the center of each wheel - with the wheel(s) fixed to the mill table.
Does this sound reasonable, and are there any hidden issues with Boring on the mill, or working holding on a 1 1/4” axle stud?
Thanks much,
Glenn
Looking for recommendations to determine the best method to turn some raw, 10” diameter (2” tread) wheel castings for a friend. The wheels need to be profiled to fit 12# rail.
The castings each have a 1” rough axle hole cast in the wheel blanks. However, I’ve discovered each axle bore is roughly 3/16” off center, from the edge the tread. Hence the outer edge of each wheel is out of round between 1/4” and 7/16” offset, when mounted on an axle stud in the lathe chuck. Way to much out of round to true up the profile, with the existing bore.
Also, The wheels are to large of diameter to mount on my faceplate or directly on the lathe chucks. So The only work holding I can use to turn each wheel profile is to hold the work on the aforememtioned axle stud - with a nut on the end to clamp tight against the chuck.
Iam thinking I need to center the wheels on the mill table, then properly rebore a correctly centered (larger) axle hole in the center of each wheel - with the wheel(s) fixed to the mill table.
Does this sound reasonable, and are there any hidden issues with Boring on the mill, or working holding on a 1 1/4” axle stud?
Thanks much,
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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Re: Wheel turning method
By all means rebore a centered hole first.
Turning that diameter with a 1 1/4" stud as a driver will mean very light cuts - a real lesson in frustration.
Can you 1) add a keyway, or 2) add a driving pin further out?
Turning that diameter with a 1 1/4" stud as a driver will mean very light cuts - a real lesson in frustration.
Can you 1) add a keyway, or 2) add a driving pin further out?
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Re: Wheel turning method
Spoked or solid wheels ?
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Re: Wheel turning method
Solid wheels. And HARDENED- maybe chilled iron. Had to use carbide to make a dent on the spru tab thingies on the edge of the wheel.
I did make a test bore in one wheel - clean minimum radius 1” cleanup. Wheel still wobbles all over the place, I now believe, due to thickness irregularities in the raw casting.
Iam thinking the best and maybe only way to turn these down properly, is mount them as actual wheel sets on axles and do the full Monty on the full wheel sets, by turning on centers. I looked more closely at one wheel, this afternoon. The casting itself has about 3/16” - 1/4” variability in the thickness of the thread. So a lot of material would need to be removed...
Not sure if the owner of the wheels is in a position to spring for 2” axle material at the moment... cost of stressproof is still thru the roof, locally.
Glenn
I did make a test bore in one wheel - clean minimum radius 1” cleanup. Wheel still wobbles all over the place, I now believe, due to thickness irregularities in the raw casting.
Iam thinking the best and maybe only way to turn these down properly, is mount them as actual wheel sets on axles and do the full Monty on the full wheel sets, by turning on centers. I looked more closely at one wheel, this afternoon. The casting itself has about 3/16” - 1/4” variability in the thickness of the thread. So a lot of material would need to be removed...
Not sure if the owner of the wheels is in a position to spring for 2” axle material at the moment... cost of stressproof is still thru the roof, locally.
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
- Bill Shields
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Re: Wheel turning method
big chuck - big lathe - carbide tooling
better u than me
better u than me
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
Re: Wheel turning method
'Might be easier to get plate cutouts for new wheels to turn.
I don't think I would attempt to mess with the castings as you described them.
I don't imagine you have a large enough lathe for that ugly job.
RussN
I don't think I would attempt to mess with the castings as you described them.
I don't imagine you have a large enough lathe for that ugly job.
RussN
- liveaboard
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Re: Wheel turning method
Yes, sounds like a big job on a small lathe.
I do that sort of thing too.
You need to be stubborn...
I would say bore the hole on the mill, mount the hole on a shaft on the lathe, and go for it.
If you can't mount them on any of your chucks, there's no other way.
I do that sort of thing too.
You need to be stubborn...
I would say bore the hole on the mill, mount the hole on a shaft on the lathe, and go for it.
If you can't mount them on any of your chucks, there's no other way.
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Re: Wheel turning method
I do have a 14” lathe, which should be big enuf for the job. just don’t have a 12” chuck... and not to keen on buying one just for this one project... (the wheels belong to another hobbyist. Iam just helping him by-hopefully- turning the wheel profile)
Couple of guys in our local metalworking group has recommended heat treating the wheels to make them more machinable. Sounds viable. If so, might try making up wheel sets with axles and turning them on centers.
Glenn
Couple of guys in our local metalworking group has recommended heat treating the wheels to make them more machinable. Sounds viable. If so, might try making up wheel sets with axles and turning them on centers.
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Re: Wheel turning method
Something as simple as building a bonfire in the yard and including the castings should result in easier to machine wheels. Of course, with the ban on burning, that will have to wait. Heat the wheels until they're red, then allow them to cool in the ashes.
It makes no sense to try to fight chilled iron, especially if the chill is deeper than the skin, or is irregular, as it would be in this case due to eccentricity.
The grade of carbide used for machining chilled iron is really important. C2 should be your choice. You'd have good luck with Carboloy 883.
H
It makes no sense to try to fight chilled iron, especially if the chill is deeper than the skin, or is irregular, as it would be in this case due to eccentricity.
The grade of carbide used for machining chilled iron is really important. C2 should be your choice. You'd have good luck with Carboloy 883.
H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
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Re: Wheel turning method
Glenn,
Just to be clear, these wheels (solid castings with a 1" hole cast in them already) are rough front and back as well as the tread? Your going to bore for the axle and turn the tread, but are you also facing the front and back? You have already determined that you have to bore the axle hole on the mill so start there and get that done.
What I would do is get a chunk of round stock as large as will fit the chuck on your larger lathe, and make up a hub that the now bored wheel will fit on. Machine the hub such that the center is like an expanding collet, make sure is doesn't extend past the face of thewheel. You may want to also have a lip on the outermost OD of the hub that protrudes .010 , this will help support the back of the wheel and keep it from singing while turning it. This way you can face the front and back of the wheel without having a nut or bolt sticking out from the front. , granted you may have to take light cuts.
Once the wheels are faced on both front and back, remove the tapered head bolt used to expand the center, and now use a bolt/washer and bolt the wheels onto the hub and turn the profile. This is where the outer lip on the hub will really come into play as it will help keep the wheel from singing and also give a good grip on the hub.
Hopefully you can see what I am trying to convey about the hub...if not i'll send you a sketch.
Nyle
Just to be clear, these wheels (solid castings with a 1" hole cast in them already) are rough front and back as well as the tread? Your going to bore for the axle and turn the tread, but are you also facing the front and back? You have already determined that you have to bore the axle hole on the mill so start there and get that done.
What I would do is get a chunk of round stock as large as will fit the chuck on your larger lathe, and make up a hub that the now bored wheel will fit on. Machine the hub such that the center is like an expanding collet, make sure is doesn't extend past the face of thewheel. You may want to also have a lip on the outermost OD of the hub that protrudes .010 , this will help support the back of the wheel and keep it from singing while turning it. This way you can face the front and back of the wheel without having a nut or bolt sticking out from the front. , granted you may have to take light cuts.
Once the wheels are faced on both front and back, remove the tapered head bolt used to expand the center, and now use a bolt/washer and bolt the wheels onto the hub and turn the profile. This is where the outer lip on the hub will really come into play as it will help keep the wheel from singing and also give a good grip on the hub.
Hopefully you can see what I am trying to convey about the hub...if not i'll send you a sketch.
Nyle
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Re: Wheel turning method
Here are some pics of the castings. Pretty nice looking overall. Hopefully they will anneal with a bit of heat in my home made foundry.
Harold, I thought about the backyard fire pit idea- of course we are on high fire alert, like everywhere else- so definitely no go until the winter rains! Thanks he foundry idea will likely work…. Plus burying them in a sand pile overnight with some red hot scrap iron to keep up the temps maybe…
Nyle, I’ll see what I can do to sketch out your fixture idea. I get the general idea , just not sure how the work holding would keep the wheel in place- they have a lot of mass with
2” thick tread… but an interesting and potentially reusable fixture for future 10” wheels. Maybe I’ll convince myself I really need a 12” four jaw, if I think ahead a little bit to the next rebuild…
Ideally I would like to turn these on center, but I don’t think the owners budget is ready quite yet for the axle cost- Better to wait for the cost of steel to come down anyway.
Glenn
Harold, I thought about the backyard fire pit idea- of course we are on high fire alert, like everywhere else- so definitely no go until the winter rains! Thanks he foundry idea will likely work…. Plus burying them in a sand pile overnight with some red hot scrap iron to keep up the temps maybe…
Nyle, I’ll see what I can do to sketch out your fixture idea. I get the general idea , just not sure how the work holding would keep the wheel in place- they have a lot of mass with
2” thick tread… but an interesting and potentially reusable fixture for future 10” wheels. Maybe I’ll convince myself I really need a 12” four jaw, if I think ahead a little bit to the next rebuild…
Ideally I would like to turn these on center, but I don’t think the owners budget is ready quite yet for the axle cost- Better to wait for the cost of steel to come down anyway.
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge
Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
- liveaboard
- Posts: 1986
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Re: Wheel turning method
tell the wheel owner you need that 12" 4-jaw, a small price to pay for getting these things worked.