Oil Drain Plug Torque in Cast Aluminum

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warmstrong1955
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Re: Oil Drain Plug Torque in Cast Aluminum

Post by warmstrong1955 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:15 am

SteveM wrote:
warmstrong1955 wrote:As noted in a different thread....anti-seize is a good idea!
Yes, but one downside is that with the anti-seize applied, you can, at the same torque-wrench force, apply MORE tension to the threads.

It will definitely prevent the galling and corrosion issues you will have with steel on aluminum.

Steve
Yup..... about 20% less than the recommended torque does it.

Bill
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ken572
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Re: Oil Drain Plug Torque in Cast Aluminum

Post by ken572 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:29 pm

warmstrong1955 wrote:As noted in a different thread....anti-seize is a good idea!

Bill
I Like to use anti-seize also, and it has always saved my butt.
As I think back to my days in the garages that I have worked at, We were
told to use 25 foot pounds without anti-seize and 20 foot pounds with
anti-seize as a rule of thumb.

Ken. :)
One must remember.
The best learning experiences come
from working with the older Masters.
Ken.

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SteveM
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Re: Oil Drain Plug Torque in Cast Aluminum

Post by SteveM » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:33 pm

warmstrong1955 wrote:Yup..... about 20% less than the recommended torque does it.
Thanks for quantifying that!

Steve

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warmstrong1955
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Re: Oil Drain Plug Torque in Cast Aluminum

Post by warmstrong1955 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:38 pm

SteveM wrote:
warmstrong1955 wrote:Yup..... about 20% less than the recommended torque does it.
Thanks for quantifying that!

Steve
Just a note..... the 20% less is comparing dry torque to lubed. Not exact....but plenty close enough for us normal mortals.....

Bill
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royldean
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Re: Oil Drain Plug Torque in Cast Aluminum

Post by royldean » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:12 am

I would argue that "oil drain plug threads" are never really "dry".... It's not like lug nuts. There's oil pouring all around those threads prior to you sticking the plug back in. Not sure if I would "de-rate" in this instance....

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dgoddard
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Re: Oil Drain Plug Torque in Cast Aluminum

Post by dgoddard » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:12 pm

ctwo wrote:..... I can also verify that the factory had that bolt so tight that someone was required to hold the bike from being torqued over and I had to resort to a 24" breaker. It was a clean crack free when it broke loose and spun right out,.....
I offer this from my personal experience working on multiple brands of Japanese cars. It seems that the Japanese use a sort of thread locker that is sort of like supper glue rather that the stuff that Loctite or Fel-Pro makes. The Japanese stuff achieves a strong but brittle bond which lets go with a snap or crack sound and the freely turns. The Loctite brand of thread locker, has two removal torques. One called the break away torque, which starts the screw turning and another caused the prevailing torque which is required to keep turning the bolt that is broken loose. I think that may be the explanation of your experience removing the bolt the first time.

Curiously Loctite lists a higher prevailing torque torque than break-away torque for their high strength red loctite. I have tested it and found that to be exactly what happens. The screw will start to turn at one torque and shortly there after the torque rises to an even higher value. This was the case with some 3/8 grade 5 bolts I tested.
-- First the bolts started to turn at one torque.
-- then the torque to keep turning started to rise
-- then the bolt stopped turning and the head was twisted off.

When I questioned the Loctite representative, he confirmed that the red loctite will roll up it little bits that lock the thread even tighter. Although the bolt will come out readily if the assembly is heated to around 325 F.

Those Japanese bolts were real buggers to break loose, especially the ones with poor access, it took me half an hour and some clever manuvering after removing the floor shift lever to get out the top two on the bell housing. They let go with a very audible crack sound and then turned freely.
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Rich_Carlstedt
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Re: Oil Drain Plug Torque in Cast Aluminum

Post by Rich_Carlstedt » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:32 pm

There is much speculation here.
Not knowing the exact thread size and pitch, the number of engaged threads, and the type of cast aluminum means all the differences in the world. The pan could be cast from a special alloy ?

Given a 14-2.0 mm thread and yield point for generic Aluminum, I come up with a little over 1 1/2 foot pounds of torque per thread engaged. So if you have 6 threads ( about 3/4") your max torque before failure is 9 foot/pounds

And Yes, the application of anti-seize lowers torque needs. Many fastener charts use 15 % lower specs for that application, and 20 % is a good start

Rich

Maybe you are not aware, but Ford had a major issue with their V-10 Engine in the 90's
The plugs only had 4 turns in the aluminum heads (alloy) and the spec called for 12 Ft/Lbs and even then
they would strip...the cost of repair jumped to about 2 grand to repair from what I was told.
In 2000, they went to 8 threads engagement

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mcostello
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Re: Oil Drain Plug Torque in Cast Aluminum

Post by mcostello » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:18 pm

Wow Rich, they are really splurging on the threads there!

revrnd
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Re: Oil Drain Plug Torque in Cast Aluminum

Post by revrnd » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:32 pm

warmstrong1955 wrote:I would guess that whoever installed the drain plug at the factory, forgot to adjust the pressure on his wrench before tightening. They don't use conventional torque wrenches.
http://www.flexibleassembly.com/Product ... -Nutrunner

I doubt the operator had anything to do w/ the "adjusting" of his wrench. I spent 24 years in automotive assembly plants & we had torque monitors that checked the calibration of torque tools (on a shift by shift basis). In later years systems were put in place that the tool was controlled electronically to obtain the proper torque.

I would think Yamaha would be using the same systems.

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dgoddard
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Re: Oil Drain Plug Torque in Cast Aluminum

Post by dgoddard » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:35 pm

warmstrong1955 wrote:....Yes, but one downside is that with the anti-seize applied, you can, at the same torque-wrench force, apply MORE tension to the threads.
One needs to be careful when using the term "anti-seize". That term can refer to
1.-- a particular product
2. -- a fortified grease product
3.-- A property of a particular thread treatment

For instance one would not normally think of the classic blue Loctite, (removal strength) as having an anti-seize property, but in fact it does. Seizing in threads derives from more than one source.
-- certain material in intimate contact, especially when smooth and with no other material between may actually develop a weld. An early astronaut experiment was to place two super finished blocks togehter while on a space walk. The two blocks welded.

-- With Loctite products the threads are coated with a material that adheres to them which means that the material will not be pushed out of the contact zone. When a bolt is tightened in a hole, the flank of the male thread toward the head, is intimately pressed toward the flank of the female thread away from the bolt head. If the thread locking agent cannot be expelled from between the surfaces metal to metal seizing cannot occur. But of course on the other male and female flanks there is a gap created, and foreign corrosive agents could enter and fuse the threads with corrosion products, except that the Loctite will fill that gap and seal it, blocking out the corrosive environment. The result is that even though the Loctite is put in to resist the unscrewing of the threads, it also insures that they actually will unscrew at some predictable torque.

So it would be perfectly fair to say that Loctite
-- Locks threads
-- Seals threads against leakage
-- Prevents threads from seizing

How ever if we look at the chemistry of some grades of the Never Seize brand, we find something like
-- a lithium based grease which is waterproof petroleum lubricant
-- Nickel powder which is a metalic powder with a great tendency to gall
-- Graphite, which is crystaline carbon and is both a lubricant and an abrasive
-- Aluminum Oxide which is a ceramic noted for its use in abrasives.
The product is a basically a lubricant. and accordingly
-- Because it is a lubricant with a reliable coefficient of friction it tends toward uniform tightness of bolts tightened
-- Because it contains graphite the crystal planes will slip one on another at a fairly predictable force
-- Nickel has good high temperature anti corrosion characteristics and it will adhere to the screw thread surfaces
-- The use of a ceramic aluminum oxide at any credible application temperature it will not "burn out"
I have seen a c-clamp holding parts to be welded together get hot enough for the foot on the end of the screw to require a hammer to knock it loose, but the never seize stayed in the thread and in the screw to foot joint and it unscrewed easily.So when installing exhaust manifold bolts, I rather like never seize but for most other bolts I like Loctite blue. If a fluid needs to be sealed, Loctite is also the choice. But it will melt at a few hundred degrees well below the tempering temperature of most steels.

Part of the trick however is that for any given thread treatment, the torque may be different.

If the joint is going to be subjected to forces that will try to slip the joined pieces across one another, the Loctite has another advantage, You should be aware that once surfaces start slipping the coefficient of friction reduces radically. Loctite (and its similar competitors) tend to fill all the space between the male and female thread and then harden. The space is there because of both the allowance and the tolerance of the threads. Because the space is filled with a solid or semi-solid, the screw resists moving sidewise as well as slipping along the helix that winds around the screw. Once the surfaces slip,sideways as they can in an "un-sealed" screw due to shear forces on the joint, the thread surfaces will as easily slide "downhill" on the helix as well as crosswise to the screw shank. the result is loosening of the screw as well as loss of clamp force which only makes the process more likely. This is one of the reasons that a "phonograph finish" is sometimes specified for the mating surfaces as it increases the resistance to lateral slip in the joint elements. Press fit dowels are sometimes used for the same reason.

So if temperature resistance will not be exceeded, I will likely opt for the Loctite or its similar competitors. But If the loading is not primarily a shearing one, but it is going to get hundreds of degrees hot, that weakens those products then I will favor the never-seize type of product. Of course the historic British solution for exhaust manifolds that I also like is steel studs with bronze nuts. And maybe stainless steel studs at that. Holds just fine, comes apart when you want it to without breaking things, and requires no extra goop.

On the nuclear reactors we built, we were essentially limited to neolube, a product of very fine graphite in alcohol. The alcohol evaporates and leaves the graphite behind. It was still pretty difficult because the 300 series stainless steels will gall really really easily. Other ingredients in the more common thread treatments would tend to dissolve in the reactor coolant and go through the nuclear core and transmute into rather troublesome isotopes. Or in the case of petroleum ingredients break down into smaller components and combine with radioactive iodine to produce Methyl Iodide which is gaseous and escapes when the reactor is opened for refuelling.

Just a curious side note: If a stainless screw in a stainless hole did start to gall the one penetrating lubricant that we could use to get it out was pure pharmaceutical grade Oil of Wintergreen. The other penetrating lubes were not to be allowed for various chemical and radiological reasons. It works surprisingly well. Just be aware to never get it on your skin or in your eyes because it is hyper concentrated liniment! :shock: :twisted: :roll: Smells kind of nice though :wink:
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ronm
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Re: Oil Drain Plug Torque in Cast Aluminum

Post by ronm » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:27 am

Aluminum washers are used to seal drain plugs &other plugs on a lot of JD equipment. The aluminum will seize to the cast iron case & the steel plug to the point of needing a cheater pipe to break it loose. ..then when it does pop loose it's so sudden it will hurt you. ..I discovered a long time ago that one good tap with a hammer will break it loose &you can unscrew it with your fingers. ..I've had fun watching somebody struggle with a plug, then just walk over, whack it &take it out with my fingers.

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