Surface Grinding

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ctwo
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Surface Grinding

Post by ctwo »

I've been thinking of a surface grinder (there isn't a surface grinder forum), but know nothing of the common tooling and machines, what to look for, and what to avoid. This takes an investment of time and research, of course, and probably a little trial and error to even begin to understand (like Steve's Clausing education...), and that is going to have a real cost.

Here is the first question that came to mind, and that is only because I was asked and still cannot answer - what do you want to do with a CNC, err, I mean surface grinder? And, I guess the answer is still the same. I don't really know. I want to learn about them, how to use one, and to make/restore a few tools like my vises, jaws, sine bars, squares, blocks, etc... And to just have the tool available for the inevitable unicorn that may present.

I am looking at a Boyar Schultz Surface Grinder Model 612 for around $500 and DoAll automatic surface grinder 6-18 for around 1250. I like the idea of a smaller surface grinder, just because my space is already full, and they may be less expensive.

Anyway, just looking for some general tips to get started on the research.
Standards are so important that everyone must have their own...
To measure is to know - Lord Kelvin
Disclaimer: I'm just a guy with a few machines...
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SteveHGraham
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Re: Surface Grinding

Post by SteveHGraham »

That Clausing has become a proverb.

I am looking forward to responses. When I see grinders on Craigslist, I always ask myself, "How can a machine that's supposed to be accurate to a tenth be any good if it's used?"
Every hard-fried egg began life sunny-side up.
SteveM
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Re: Surface Grinding

Post by SteveM »

You will find that larger grinders can be cheaper than smaller ones, because they are not wanted by industry, and the home shop guys want the smaller ones.

If you want to see what you can do and how to do it, see Stan Zinkoski's videos:
https://www.youtube.com/user/shadonhkw/videos

His business is installing paint spray booths, but he does a lot of machining videos, particularly grinding. Look for all his videos called "The Grind".

Grinding is used for putting exceptional finishes on parts and machining to very accurate tolerances.

Whatever size you get, you will eventually want a bigger one, so if you can afford and have room for a 6x18, go for it.

I'm getting my dad's Sanford, which is a small benchtop surface grinder. I think it's only 4x7 and I'm sure I will outgrow it, but it's bigger than what I have now, which is nothing. Dad called "the most useful machine in the shop".

When you go to look at one, be sure it's not making a lot of bearing noise because that noise translates into surface finish.

I suspect that a 3-phase motor will produce a better surface finish than a single phase.

Steve
John Evans
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Re: Surface Grinding

Post by John Evans »

ctwo: I have a Boyer 6-18 2A paid about $1800 for it. Two things come to mind that my first SG taught me. 1 power table feeds,you will get real tired of cranking feed handles. 2 coolant !! grinding makes heat which makes the work move in ways you may not want. Also automatic lube system is nice. A ballway machine with cable table drive is probably the easiest manual machine to hand crank. A rack drive flatway machine without auto lube the worst[my first SG a Delta] Any ball/roller way machine requires special care to transport !! More details PM me your phone #\
John
EDIT; Steve is right on the 3 Phase. I have run my grinder on both a static and rotary converters and the rotary finish is better.Forget single phase if finish is critical.
www.chaski.com
SteveM
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Re: Surface Grinding

Post by SteveM »

I was helping someone sell off her late husband's machine shop, and a friend has just had his surface grinder have a major problem (think it was dropped when moving into the new shop) and he was looking for one.

He checked out the Boyar 6x12 and it had bearing noise. He got it for $300, but it cost him ANOTHER $300 to buy a set of spindle bearings for it, but once he put them in, it was great.

My dad rigged up a pneumatic system on the Sanford that would, if I remember correctly, move the table back and forth and well as in on each stroke. He had valves on it that when the table reached the end of travel, it would reverse. I haven't found the parts for that yet, but that will be interesting to set that up.

Steve
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ctwo
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Re: Surface Grinding

Post by ctwo »

Thanks. I've watched most of Stan's videos, but that tapered off the last couple of months.

The Boyer is actually a grand and an old Chevalier is available for $600. I would likely be happy with that if it's still in good shape. I found some info on this site about a 618 and the cost of a belt, and elsewhere about removing the table during transport. I may keep looking and reading about what I find.

Thanks for the insights. Some things I would not have thought of.
Standards are so important that everyone must have their own...
To measure is to know - Lord Kelvin
Disclaimer: I'm just a guy with a few machines...
John Evans
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Re: Surface Grinding

Post by John Evans »

My Boyer 6X18 is direct drive no belt.
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TimTheGrim
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Re: Surface Grinding

Post by TimTheGrim »

I am never more alert and focused than when my SG is running. The sheer potential for instantaneous calamitous destruction and stuff flying everywhere just never leaves you after you first experience it. It's it's own form of PTSD. Certainly the most dangerous machine in my home shop and yet, there it is.

Mine is an old 6x18 Reid that I had professionally reworked back in '94 with Turcite ways. I don't grind many flat plates but when I do it does get tedious. Instead I use it mostly for small parts, form tools, cutters and such. I have radius dressers, punch formers, sine plates, sine vices, insert vices and all sorts of blocks and vee blocks I can join together to make fixtures. I've worked with SGs since '74 and don't know what I'd do without one.

I liked the Boyar-Schultz and Harig 6x12 manual machines and then more recently the Mitsui and Okomoto. No matter what you get, they are messy. Some kind of dust collector is a must.

A Bijur type closed lube system, minimal spindle whine, a fine pole magnetic chuck, intact/complete wheel guard, the spindle tip threads in good form, no dings on the spindle taper, smooth movement on all axis through their full travel. Do the hand wheels have setable sleeves? If so do the hand wheel graduated sleeves move freely and not gritty. Do you like the "feel" and personal ergonomics of the machine. Some have the Z axis wheel up top right and others at saddle height. Lots to consider.

Lots of good advice already posted here too.
Let us know what you bring home.
Illigitimi non Carborundum
'96 Birmingham mill, Enco 13x40 GH and Craftsman 6x18 lathes, Reid 2C surface grinder. Duro Bandsaw and lots of tooling from 30+ years in the machining trades and 15+ years in refinery units. Now retired
SteveM
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Re: Surface Grinding

Post by SteveM »

TimTheGrim wrote: Some kind of dust collector is a must.
That brings up a question I have wondered about:

What do you use for dust collection?

If there are hot sparks flying off the machine, that could have the potential to set fire to things in a vacuum.

Steve
earlgo
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Re: Surface Grinding

Post by earlgo »

I bought the Delta Toolmaker in '88 when I was "between jobs" for the sole purpose of sharpening thread chasers, ie Oster and Rigid. It paid for itself and bought groceries until I was a "corporate galley rower" once more. It, a Yuasa 3 axis vise and home made fixtures was all that was required. The 3 phase motor was swapped out because I didn't have 3 phase.
After that lean time passed I began using it as a surface grinder, and it is not a good choice. The single phase causes ripples. Also I don't have a wheel balancer and that certainly would help. Currently I use it for sharpening HSS turning tools, drills, taps, milling cutters and the occasional lawn mower blade. :shock: Pretty handy for some things, not so much for others.
C utter Sharpening-s.jpg
This is the pic of the 'sine plate' fixture for grinding stuff between centers.
taper grinding s.JPG

Where I once worked, the shop manager especially bought a Boyer Schultz grinder because he knew it would be a great choice. It was.
Just my experiences.
--earlgo
Before you do anything, you must do something else first. - Washington's principle.
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mcostello
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Re: Surface Grinding

Post by mcostello »

One habit that would be good to get would be to try to move the part on the magnetic chuck with Your hand prior to starting to grind. When I bought My SG the first thing I tried to grind was a piece of Stellite. The lesson learned was Stellite is not magnetic. Wake up call in progress.
John Hasler
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Re: Surface Grinding

Post by John Hasler »

John Evans wrote: Steve is right on the 3 Phase. I have run my grinder on both a static and rotary converters and the rotary finish is better.Forget single phase if finish is critical.
DC is just as smooth as three-phase. Since you don't need speed control you could run a treadmill motor directly off a simple full-wave bridge.
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