World Metrology Day

[Mr Ron]

At age 82, I'm not about to switch from imperial. Old timer machinists have been using the imperial system from the industrial revolution to the present and they don't complain; why should you.

[pete]

Anyone would have a tough time argueing with your points Russ. 50 years from now they'll wonder what took us so long. This transition period is what's making things tough. I forget what exact book it's in but one of mine mentions that there's over 600 thread pitches and types of thread forms for industrial threads in common use today. That doesn't include any of the more uncommon specialty threads. Watch making, instrument making ect likely drives that number far higher. Metric even has an almost unknown and specialty constant pitch series as well. Then there's manufacturer specific threads just so your forced into buying from them. Old equipment before some standards were introduced could be almost any thread pitch. Old firearms can be real bad for that. Automotive though seems to be the worst for some of it right now just like you say. At least in North America. Half the bolt heads metric and half or even just an odd imperial thrown in to keep you on your toes. In Europe my guess there not dealing with that at all. I don't work with anything metric for long enough to make that visualization fast and workable. I have to mentally convert it so I can see it. Some seem to be hard wired so it's a lot easier to be fully comfortable in either system. Home renovations can involve some not so round numbers. I've used the metric meters and millimeters on the tape measure at times and then onto the chop saw simply because it lands on a close enough line to what I want and it's easier to keep track of than some odd fraction. At that point I don't care what measurement system it's in just that the 2" x 4" fits.

I've got some as yet unmet friends in the UK with the same interests as mine and I'll usually try to convert anything imperial over to metric just as a courtesy and make things easier. Pita like you say and one integrated agreed to system that everyone can work with would obviously make things much easier. But at least for imperial threads it could be hundreds of years before it mostly dies off. There is just too much held onto or preserved that I can't really see when it will die off completely. For myself I know if I made a real effort to go completely metric it wouldn't take that long to do so if the feedscrew problem on my machines was ignored. Even that could be changed if I really wanted to. But in my opinion there isn't enough need or any real gain for me to do so.

[Harold_V]

What conceivable merit does the imperial system have, apart from making people really good at fractions?

It likely has none, but you'll have to trust me on this one. I know the imperial system well. It has served me all my life, and dimensions so tendered have value to me, as I can visualize them. I can't readily do that with the metric system, as I am not nearly as familiar with it as I am the imperial system. What BDD said is gospel. What system is used doesn't matter, assuming one understands the system.

Do I think the metric system is faster, easier, better? Possibly so----but not for those of us who know the imperial system well. It stands to reason that it would serve all of us better if the world was strictly metric, but it isn't, and I'm not going to hold my breath in hopes that it will some day satisfy the needs of all.

I'm with Mr. Ron. I'm only 77, but I'm not about to abandon the system I've used all my life. Why should I?

Harold

[SteveHGraham]

I turned metric while I was getting my degree in physics. There are tons of calculations you can do in your head with the metric system, which would take a calculator or at least a pencil and paper in imperial. Imperial is just plain stupid, which is understandable, given that it literally comes from the Bronze Age.

It reminds me of the QWERTY keyboard, which was designed to be clumsy in order to slow typists down and prevent them from breaking primitive typewriters. Now we have nice plastic keyboards hooked up to computers, and we are still hobbled.

[earlgo]

Reading a metric scale or micrometer is the easy part of metrology.
Try doing stress calculations. Anyone have a real feel for kN or GPa or N-m? Oh and don't forget to divide your Kg by g (9.8m/sec^2) to get to the proper units of Newtons.
Been there, done that and you can have the #$&! T-shirt.

--earlgo (Still looking for a metric hammer.)

[Mr Ron]

It likely has none, but you'll have to trust me on this one. I know the imperial system well. It has served me all my life, and dimensions so tendered have value to me, as I can visualize them. I can't readily do that with the metric system, as I am not nearly as familiar with it as I am the imperial system. What BDD said is gospel. What system is used doesn't matter, assuming one understands the system.

Do I think the metric system is faster, easier, better? Possibly so----but not for those of us who know the imperial system well. It stands to reason that it would serve all of us better if the world was strictly metric, but it isn't, and I'm not going to hold my breath in hopes that it will some day satisfy the needs of all.

I'm with Mr. Ron. I'm only 77, but I'm not about to abandon the system I've used all my life. Why should I?

Harold

We are both on the same track. I have worked with the metric system when I worked on foreign ship repair at Ingalls shipbuilding in Mississippi. It was a bit of a hassle, but we got the job done. We had to order metric steel shapes and used imperial size fasteners.

[BadDog]

Going OT, but not quite true on the QWERTY keyboard.

The major influence was not to be clumsy in order to slow typists, but rather to reduce the opportunity for physical jams of striker arms during very rapid typing. So the reality is exactly the opposite in that the goal was to facilitate much faster typing by avoiding what would otherwise be mechanical limitations to speed.

There is also a secondary but related influence to organize and divide the most common key sequences in such a way as to maximize the use of both hands alternately, and to reduce the reach required for the most common keys. In particular dividing common key sequences left and right also helped avoid the jams, so achieved both goals. But avoiding jams was the primary concern, so where the goals conflicted, reducing the opportunity for jams easily won out over the lower priority goals. But if you have a programmable keyboard, there are other key layouts that further facilitate those goals (without the obsolete mechanical influence), including some that are application domain specific. Or you can buy keyboards with alternate layouts native.

[SteveHGraham]

The intention may not have been to slow people down per se, but that was the result. Now we're stuck with a keyboard that prevents us from typing as quickly and easily as we should, just like we're stuck with teaspoons and bushels.

Some imperial measures are so old no one knows where they came from. The mile and the foot were already in use when BC ran out and AD started.

Buying an alternative keyboard is like learning Esperanto or Klingon unless you can take it everywhere you go. One wonders if the educational system will start letting kids learn better layouts now that they can be switched with a mouse click. I guess it doesn't matter. Not many people can think faster than 60 wpm.

[tornitore45]

Steve, Bad Dog answered before me. Threading 1/N imperial style allow the use of one tread dial with one gear. Decimal imperial is just as practical as metric, but fractions may be OK for masons and earth movers but are a pain in machining.

[SteveM]

Exact physical measurements are still only a mathematical concept anyway. There's no such thing in the physical world that's "exactly" an inch, foot, meter if your measurements are accurate enough.

Not quite true - the earth is 4 megameters in circumference (at least to the accuracy that the guys who did the survey to figure it out). That was the whole point of metric - to have a measurement system that was not based on some king's thumb, some barley that could vary, or some thing in one country or another. By basing it on the earth, it was to be "everyone's" measurement.

At age 82, I'm not about to switch from imperial. Old timer machinists have been using the imperial system from the industrial revolution to the present and they don't complain; why should you.

If you haven't needed it yet, you don't have to switch.

Steve

[dbstoo]

What conceivable merit does the imperial system have, apart from making people really good at fractions?

It occurred to me last week that a system built on the length of a body part is easy to relate to. I know instinctively the approximate sizes of a foot, an inch and even a yard.

And then there is the easy divisibility of fraction based measures. I can easily get 1/2 cup of milk from a cup using only two glasses from the same set. But how does one extract 375 ml from a liter without measuring devices? Given 1 inch of anything I can divide it into halves, fourths, eighths, etc. How do I divide a CM into 3 mm, 4 mm or 7 mm without a ruler? Yeah, there are some things that don't divide well, but most things do.

Dan

[SteveM]

And then there is the easy divisibility of fraction based measures.

That's why the circle is 360 degrees instead of 100.

Imagine trying to calculate the compass heading in degrees for north by northwest?

Steve