First time using super glue chuck

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pete
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Re: First time using super glue chuck

Post by pete » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:33 pm

A cutting tool like an end mill during conventional milling exerts the most force on the part as it starts to exit the part. One side is still doing that conventional cutting but the opposite side is then climb cutting. It's for that reason it's a good idea to reduce the feed rate as the end mill starts to exit a part. Heavy cuts in hard material can also break the end mills corners and up to breaking one or more teeth off if the shock loads become high enough. Brass is always going to be a slippery material held in a vise or with that super glue. So flooding the part with a full coverage of CA glue might give you some fudge factor for the amount of holding force the glue can provide. Soldering small parts to a block that's then held in the vise isn't unknown in the old model engineering magazines. Clean up is obviously more of an issue, but a properly soldered part shouldn't ever move with any sane level for depth of cut or feed rate.

Harold_V
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Re: First time using super glue chuck

Post by Harold_V » Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:56 am

Mr Ron wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:59 pm
If I made them individually, I would be cutting 8 pieces, chucking each one up in the vise.
True. But it takes little time, especially if you use air to keep the vise clean. Some think that's not a good idea. I do. And I've run literally thousands of parts that way. It works, and very well.
It seems it would be a lot more work doing it that way. Making it from a strip minimizes setup.
Not really any difference in setup, but you do handle each part regularly. You also eliminate the problem you're having now. How much time and material have you wasted trying to make something work that is prone to failure?

What I suggested is no big deal if you understand how to do the work that way. When I say I'd make them individually, I didn't mean that I'd make one, then start another. When you do production work, you make a setup and run all of the parts in that setup, then you move on to the next cut (often the next setup, but not always). It actually happens quite quickly, especially with small parts. In this case, I'd start by squaring the parts, cutting the same face on each part before starting the next cut, which would be an adjacent face. If your vise is square, the parts come out beautifully square as well. Once cut to size (all six sides), I would then cu the slots. I'd drill the hole last. Stops would be set using the ¼"-20 tapped holes I installed in the fixed jaw, immediately behind the hard insert jaw. They're extremely useful for small work. The stop not only locates the part horizontally, but also clamps the parallel in place, so it doesn't get moved about by air, and doesn't get chips under it, altering height.
The super glue failed on another setup I was machining, so I need to rethink it. I can do all the machining, but when it comes to separating the pieces, that's where I have adhesive failure. Here are a few more parts I am making.
Perhaps this will help you understand that there's a better way to make them, and it's generally a lot safer, as you don't have any of those issues, plus, if you intentionally use a setup part, you'll make any mistakes on the same piece, without sacrificing all of them as you do if you make a strip.
Thank you Harold. I have several ideas to work with.
As I said, I'd make them one at a time, but perform the same operation on all the parts once the setup is made. If you use stops in your vise, you'll discover that you can actually do them quite quickly, and without risk of scrapping all of them at the same time as you would if you make a mistake on the strip.

In any case, good luck, and please let us know how the job shakes out.

H
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LIALLEGHENY
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Re: First time using super glue chuck

Post by LIALLEGHENY » Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:58 am

So I have to ask the question, how many of each part are you making? 6, 8? or a much larger quantity? I own a commercial shop, much like Harold did, and I would not even think about using super glue to make the parts. For small quantities I would make them just as Harold says, using stops, doing each operation on all parts then move to the next op.
For larger quantities I would make them in strips like you have shown, but I would purchase material about an 1/8 inch thicker than the part shown. Hold the strip in the vise holding on to the 1/8" , and do your milling, slotting, drilling etc. Mill the perimeter of each part about .025 deeper than the finished depth. I would then do the last step in one of two ways; take the strip to the saw and cut off each part, and then face the back removing the 1/8" material, bringing your part to size, or if you had even larger quantities ( and the use of CAD/CAM and a CNC), mill a set of soft vise jaws that match the parts/ strip and remove the 1/8" off all parts in one shot.

Nyle

Mr Ron
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Re: First time using super glue chuck

Post by Mr Ron » Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:00 am

Thanks all for your experience. The learning curve is long in the world of machining and sometimes I think I'm going backwards. Thanks for keeping me on track.
Mr.Ron from South Mississippi

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NP317
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Re: First time using super glue chuck

Post by NP317 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:53 am

Perhaps soft-solder the brass strip to be machined to another brass strip for holding in the vice?
I've done that before. Successfully.
RussN

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GlennW
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Re: First time using super glue chuck

Post by GlennW » Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:19 pm

These are the parts Mr Ron is referring to.

https://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/vi ... 4&t=109009
Glenn

Operating machines is perfectly safe......until you forget how dangerous it really is!

whateg0
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Re: First time using super glue chuck

Post by whateg0 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:10 pm

I thought we had decided back then that the best way to make them was to set up production style as Harold suggested now, performing the same operation on each part before repeating with subsequent operations. There are things that could be done prior to separating them but I don't think I would try to make them with a super glue chuck.

Mr Ron
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Re: First time using super glue chuck

Post by Mr Ron » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:30 pm

So far the glue joints have failed, but I have been able to make 12 parts, all identical (well almost identical) the lack of identicallity will not affect their function. The drilled holes and slots are well within tolerances. Taking each on a case-by-case basis, I will be able to complete my project. So far, I haven't ruined any parts. I now have 24 more parts to make in 3 different shapes. I will keep you posted as to my progress. Again, thanks for all your help and encouragement.
Mr.Ron from South Mississippi

whateg0
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Re: First time using super glue chuck

Post by whateg0 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:36 pm

Setting up as Harold describes let's you make identical parts

Harold_V
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Re: First time using super glue chuck

Post by Harold_V » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:40 pm

Yep!
Many years ago, I made more than 200 of these---block tolerance was ± .003", with much tighter tolerance on several features, the closest being only .0002".
The production method was as I described, with 26 setups in total. Every cut was taken on the mill (my Bridgeport), including the turns on each end (.001" tolerance on the diameters, as I recall).

So the picture makes sense, the pin you see is a common straight pin. The piece on the right is what they looked like after assembly. The delivered pieces were solid film lubricated, as per spec., and is not yet applied to the piece in the image. The aluminum, at this point, had been anodized, however. The base piece, left side of the image, was made from Armco iron (carbon free, so there is no residual magnetism). The body was made from 6061-T6 aluminum, with the pin made from stainless. .022" diameter. I did not make the pins used in the assembly. They were provided by the company from which I contracted the job.

While I had no clue for what they were used, they were identified as an antenna latch on the print. Defense work.

I have posted this information previously, but long ago. I wanted to do so again, so you could see how effective that particular approach to machining can be. Identical parts is what you get.

H
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Antenna Latches resized.jpg
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

Mr Ron
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Re: First time using super glue chuck

Post by Mr Ron » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:34 pm

Harold_V wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:40 pm
Yep!
Many years ago, I made more than 200 of these---block tolerance was ± .003", with much tighter tolerance on several features, the closest being only .0002".
The production method was as I described, with 26 setups in total. Every cut was taken on the mill (my Bridgeport), including the turns on each end (.001" tolerance on the diameters, as I recall).

So the picture makes sense, the pin you see is a common straight pin. The piece on the right is what they looked like after assembly. The delivered pieces were solid film lubricated, as per spec., and is not yet applied to the piece in the image. The aluminum, at this point, had been anodized, however. The base piece, left side of the image, was made from Armco iron (carbon free, so there is no residual magnetism). The body was made from 6061-T6 aluminum, with the pin made from stainless. .022" diameter. I did not make the pins used in the assembly. They were provided by the company from which I contracted the job.

While I had no clue for what they were used, they were identified as an antenna latch on the print. Defense work.

I have posted this information previously, but long ago. I wanted to do so again, so you could see how effective that particular approach to machining can be. Identical parts is what you get.

H
Quite impressive. I can't imagine making those parts (so small) on a Bridgeport. I guess you must have first made a jig so all parts would end up identical. I can see making them on a CNC, but not manual.
Mr.Ron from South Mississippi

Harold_V
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Re: First time using super glue chuck

Post by Harold_V » Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:09 pm

I used a modified soft jaw to hold the parts, as it was necessary to cut the jaw with each operation. The parts were too small to hold by conventional methods. And, in a rare switch in procedure, the large hole (.032") in the part was the index point, as it was held to ±.001" for location. It was easier to use the hole for indexing than it would have been to place it properly after the features of the parts were machined. The jaw of which I speak had a pin installed, which was how the parts were indexed for almost all of the operations.

The modified soft jaw of which I speak was simply taped to the existing hard jaw, plus a small finger clamp applied, using one of the ¼"-20 tapped holes in the fixed jaw of the vice. Those tapped holes are a requirement for such work, as they provide for clamping that isn't in the way. The tape and clamp prevented movement, so air could be used to keep the jaws perfectly clean.

When one holds miniscule parts, the handle of the vise must not be used, as it exerts excessive pressure. I used a 1" parallel clamp as my vise handle, and tightened the vise with two fingers. A consistent clamping force was necessary to avoid compressing the overall setup, which would alter location of the part.

Doing small work is a whole different world from large stuff. I specialized in small, and developed methods that made the work easy.

Many parts were scrapped through the operation. The order required 209 pieces. I started with about 240, and ended up selling 219, as overage was accepted. Tolerance on this part was extreme--very easy to make scrap. Aside from the one piece that is shown assembled, the other pieces are parts that were scrapped during various operations. It happens! I know of no one who can machine without making the occasional error.

H
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