Hidden Tool Holding Costs

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pete
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Hidden Tool Holding Costs

Post by pete »

I had to think a bit before posting this video link because it's topic and dollar numbers are much more related to a commercial shop than what most here might have as a hobby only shop. It also assumes that you already know and fully understand how actual tool holding with higher run out numbers have a direct and more than well proven reduction in any cutting tools life span. For most of us buying a set of collets would be a one time expense with roughly a lifetimes worth of expected use. And as the video explains, those low cost with no guarantees for low run out off shore collets just may not end up saving quite as much money as we normally assume they do. I still think the subject and the videos information is at least worth considering before buying tool holding collets of any type and the importance of actually checking what you have bought. And while it is about ER collets, the exact same obviously holds true for R8, B&S, Morse Taper or any other spindle tapers as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM9qVWhMWy0&t=3s
RONALD
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Re: Hidden Tool Holding Costs

Post by RONALD »

Back in 1994, when I bought a new Harrison VS330TR I bought Royal 5C Collets for the lathe.

They were more expensive, but to me as a one time buyer of such collets, they were worth the cost.

Today, Royal still exists, but they no longer have regular 5C Collets, they gave up trying to complete with Asia.

https://www.royalproducts.com/product.cfm?catID=6

Download their catalog for a look at precison collets of many types.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Hidden Tool Holding Costs

Post by Bill Shields »

Ain't no such thing as a cheap tool.

Although I have to admit that I purchase low price square and hex collet for obvious reasons since I do not care about runout.

I also have a rack full of Royal 5C round collets..40+ years old
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
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Harold_V
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Re: Hidden Tool Holding Costs

Post by Harold_V »

Bill Shields wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:50 pm Ain't no such thing as a cheap tool.
I'm not sure I agree. A lot depends on what one expects from the tool in question.

A great example. About 20 years ago, HF offered a set of six combination wrenches, 1¼" to 2". They look a great deal like wrenches marketed by Craftsman. I made the purchase, as my need for large wrenches is exceedingly rare, so I figured I could afford to invest in the set, even if they sat unused the bulk of the time.

Turns out they are quite good, and I have used them far more than I thought I would. They have surpassed my expectations. I paid far less for the six than I'd have paid for one of any of the included sizes had my choice been something like Snap-On. I'd buy them again in a heartbeat.

So then, the moral of this story is that when one does not use a tool daily, making a purchase of a lesser quality one may be a bargain. Not many of us can afford to buy new name brand tools for hobby use.

H
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liveaboard
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Re: Hidden Tool Holding Costs

Post by liveaboard »

As an amateur without hope of recovering cash spent, I have 3 choices;
1 wait for a used tool bargain
2 buy cheap new tools
3 not have tools

I prefer the first option, when possible, but Brexit has cut off the UK and transport links with other countries are too expensive to be fun.
After failing to win an auction for a used German collet chuck, I ordered a set of 4 new no-name ones for the same cost (with delivery).

Buying high quality new machine tools is about as realistic as buying a new Mercedes; sure, it would be nice.
But it's not reality for hobbyists of modest means.

I do have a 23 year old Mercedes...
pete
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Re: Hidden Tool Holding Costs

Post by pete »

Yes I see your point Mark, but your situation is also a bit unique. If you were living a lot closer to Austria, Germany, Switzerland etc even good used tooling at semi reasonable prices wouldn't be that hard to find. RSG and I live in the same country, the difference is he's where all the manufacturing in Canada happens and I'm 3,000 miles from there. I also expect this Brexit issue will get sorted out. There's too much money being lost in both directions not to. It also sounds like you'll have the only mill around your area so I wouldn't be too sure about not making a few bucks in the future. :wink:

I'm the same with some seldom used tools and did almost what Harold did to fill in my larger wrenches. Although mine are an AIGO brand from Japan. For the price I wasn't counting on much, but they've done far more than I initially expected from them. Probably like everyone else I spent a lot learning where and where not to try and save money. And if I had a set of really good 5C I'd still probably buy the cheaper square and hex collets as you did Bill and for the same reason. There may be no such thing as a cheap tool, but some are good enough for the expected use. I'd very much agree with the video in my link and tool holding collets for a mill probably isn't the best place to pinch pennies unless your really stuck like Mark is. I still have an off shore set of ER 32s from my second mill, I knowingly bought cheap and got about what I paid for. Today they and the MT 3 chuck only get used to hold S & D and larger shank drills in my lathes tail stock. For that use there good enough.
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liveaboard
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Re: Hidden Tool Holding Costs

Post by liveaboard »

.
When I was young I worked as a car mechanic and my buddies gave me grief for buying cheaper Craftsman sockets; I bought Snapon open end wrenches and screwdrivers though. Because the difference was functional for me.

I've found that today hand tools at least, like wrenches and sockets, have become available for much lower prices and the quality is quite good. I think better than Craftsman, not as good as Snapon.
I mean, I can buy them at the supermarket.

How true are my cheapo collets and collet chucks?
I have no idea.
Make chips and be happy!
VelocityDuck
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Re: Hidden Tool Holding Costs

Post by VelocityDuck »

IMHO, for what we are (Home Machinist), and the machines that some us have (I have a Shoptask 3-1), the accuracy and performance of the $40 collet over the $16 collet simply isn't a factor. When I'm buying tooling, I try to strike a balance between cost, quality, and utilization.
pete
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Re: Hidden Tool Holding Costs

Post by pete »

I spent close to 40 years working around and talking with heavy duty mechanics and millwrights in the open pit mining industry. Some bought only Snap-On and lots had Craftsman or a mix of both brands. Tool breakage from my limited perspective seemed to be about the same for both and those guys push there tools to the limit on some jobs. What wasn't equal between the two is the tool design shape and chroming process. Anybody that's ever used a Snap-On wrench or Ratchet even once will know the difference in comfort while using them. It's there function just as Mark said. And Snap-On sockets just might have a slight edge in strength before they break. I have no experience with what the newer Craftsman tools are like or there durability today, but I've heard they were and are still being made off shore. Anything I have was all made in North America.

I posted that video link as general information VD and not as a shot at anyone who chooses to pay less because of your or other reasons. As my title points out, there are hidden costs that few at the hobby level seem to fully understand. So it's still general information worth knowing about at least. I do have a Bridgeport clone and from what I saw with my X-2 sized mill I wanted nothing to do with the off shore collets when I did finally upgrade. Very likely I could have bought at least 4 or more full sets of off shore ER 40's for what I paid for my Bisons and it's chuck. Are they 4 times better? Yes at least that and more and I've never regretted buying them. But I also checked my spindle run out first. Using fairly expensive and guaranteed .0005" or less collets in a spindle that might have .0015" ++ run out would probably be a total waste of money.

OT maybe, but I don't care if this thread ends up going OT. So I'll add that whatever mill anyone has, it's work holding vise and the accuracy it provides either increases or decreases the whole machines accuracy of the parts it can produce by a lot. Yeah a Kurt might be over kill or not even fit on some mills, but a well made tool makers / grinding vise sure isn't for multiple times less cost than a Kurt. And they are multiple times better than any 3"-5" sub $250 off shore Kurt clone I've seen so far. There one deficit is there a bit slower to use. So you can get a lot better accuracy and performance for about the same money if you understand what your buying.
TimTheGrim
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Re: Hidden Tool Holding Costs

Post by TimTheGrim »

When I moved from NJ to El Paso in ‘99 I was looking for household items at “Big Lots” a close out merchandise store. I saw a set of no name CroMo box wrenches 3/8 to 1-1/4 for $14.99 and couldn’t resist. A few years later when my machining opportunities dried up and I got a job in Operations at a refinery I wasn’t supposed to have to use anything other than some valve cheater wrenches and a 14 inch pipe wrench. As the true scope of things in a crude unit became clear I realized that having a set of wrenches would be better than waiting for fitters / permits and supervisors if a small leak cropped up. I brought the Big Lots wrenches to work.

One day we were isolating a big pump and one of the fitters was using a tube on his 1-1/6 Proto combo wrench to loosen nuts on a flange. His wrench broke and he said he needed to go back to the crib and get another. That would delay work almost two hours. I ran over to my unit locker and brought him my Big Lots wrench which did the trick and lasted me another 12 years when management decided Ops could do furnace fuel gas 4 bolt flanges ourselves. We had 56 of those flanges on the furnace decks where it could be 135 f and being fast counted. I’m sure glad I’m retired and my bargain shop wrenches are home.

My Birmingham BP clone has a Taiwan head and a Chinese column/table/knee. I’ve done some minor upgrades to suit my tastes. It serves me very well and I miss it when I’m helping my pal in his die shop on a nice but very factory stock Bridgeport.

In early ‘86 at ASCO I uncrated two new Bridgeport mills and soon found out the degree band riveted on the turret was done 1 degree off. Tramming/squaring the slide during set up showed up this error. We joked that the new “Mucho Quidado” sticker on these new machines meant more than just be careful.
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'96 Birmingham mill, Enco 13x40 GH and Craftsman 6x18 lathes, Reid 2C surface grinder. Duro Bandsaw and lots of tooling from 30+ years in the machining trades and 15+ years in refinery units. Now retired
RSG
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Re: Hidden Tool Holding Costs

Post by RSG »

While Pete is correct that I live in the hub of manufacturing here in NA I find that the pricing options don't reflect the availability. Sure I can save a few bucks on shipping but the product in general is the same cost here as anywhere. That said I have some thoughts on this topic (which is a great one btw Pete).

If I didn't sell the stuff I make I probably wouldn't be so casual about spending more money on tool holding like I do. I, like a few others here will look at the amount of use I plan to get out of it and may opt for the middle of the road in quality but for the most part I have learned from experience (and from this site) that you get what you pay for and it could be the difference of fighting to hold tolerances or doing the job without having to think about it. Being able to save time is of importance to me when time is limited. Being able to hold tolerance as a result of quality tooling also means no fussing around during assembly, because every part fits no matter what parts I pick up. Now, actual tooling (cutters) is another story. I learned the hard way that cheap is crap! No matter whether you are a hobbyist or do it for gain! I don't think I would ever cheap out in that category again like I did when I was starting out. Good quality cutters just work! plain and simple! That and my meteorology, I buy the best I can get, simple as that!
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pete
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Re: Hidden Tool Holding Costs

Post by pete »

All good points Ron, but I was thinking more about all the high quality used tooling for manual equipment where a lot of it is no longer being made anymore. So buying good used is the only option left. Name any top rated manufacturer, Moore, Cincinnati, P&W, B&S, Starrett etc as well as dozens of others plus having at least some access to possibly imported older European manufactured machines and tooling. If it's anywhere it's going to be around where you are or within a few hrs drive. That hands on inspection when your not 100% sure of it's exact condition before buying is something I seldom have. The extra I pay in shipping sucks, but it's just a part of where I am. Death, Taxes and Shipping are all the same for me. :-)

And as you already know I agree 100% with your points about cutting tools and metrology. You do get what your willing to pay for with them.
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