ww2

All discussion about lathes including but not limited to: South Bend, Hardinge, Logan, Monarch, Clausing and other HSM lathes, including imports

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rusty69
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ww2

Post by rusty69 »

so I've been cleaning up my old 1936 Monarch lathe, and I was working on the 4-jaw chuck that came with the tooling that came with the lathe. Anyway, on the backside of the chuck is stamped "made for war production training, 1516 12th Ave, Seattle, April 1, 1943". I Googled that location and it is about a block or so from Seattle Central College(formerly Edison Technical School), which is where my lathe was surplused from. So that got me thinking, was the chuck made by Edison Tech? Or by some company close by for the school as part of the war effort? Maybe that was the address for the old school before it's present location. What did the tech schools do during the war? Did they produce tooling for the war effort? Or did they just train people to run machines for the war production program? There are probably few people still alive who can say firsthand what was done back then. Does anybody on the forum
know about this stuff?
pete
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Re: ww2

Post by pete »

Not first hand knowledge. And how much it really helped the war I don't know. I've read a bit about people with home shops during that time doing small production runs of simple parts. South Bend for example came up with a design for a concrete bench top for those home shops that apparently made a large difference in accuracy and surface finish with there lathes. There's a story repeated in one of Guy Lautards books about some busy body neighbor complaining about the noise from a guys home shop late at night and being told by the cops it was for the war effort and complaining might be taken for german sympathy. :-) If that type of production was going on then my guess is those training schools could or might have produced parts and possibly tooling while training since any metal wouldn't have been wasted on non essential items. Still only a best guess tho. It's my understanding that most large production companys had very large training programs within there own plants just to try and keep up to the demand for trained operators. It was an amazing effort and accomplishment going by just some of the production numbers. I don't recall reading anything about tooling being marked like that, so it's possible it was made at the school. Everything I've read indicates a lot of the machines were tagged as War Finish so little effort was spent on smoothing castings, fancy paint and polish. But the basic working requirements for accuracy were still maintained.
Glenn Brooks
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Re: ww2

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Interesting thread! I took a night machining class a couple of times at Renton Technical College, down the street from Boeing’s old WW2 aircraft plant. The first time we trained on old 16” or 18” Monarch’s that had been installed at the college by the War Department in 1941- specifically to train machinists for the war effort. A couple of the machines were still there 3 or 4 years ago. You might call the college’s machinist program and ask about your chuck. They might know something!

Glenn
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

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Bill Shields
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Re: ww2

Post by Bill Shields »

if you want a good read about all of this:

"freedom's forge" by Arthur Herman

it is a real eye opener especially for history buffs...

there was a time when any manufactured machinery had to be accounted for since everything went into the war effort and steel / iron / aluminum / copper was all accounted for because it was in short supply.

if a lathe (or chuck) was manufactured (thereby using labor and steel), it had to be accounted for...so a lathe or chuck that didn't go into a war products producing environment was accounted for by going into 'training'...which was clearly recognized as necessary (but limited).

At one time I had a little shaper that had a tag "manufactured in compliance to the War Production Board' which clearly dated exactly when it was built.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
Packard V8
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Re: ww2

Post by Packard V8 »

Sort-of on topic. In 1971, in Oakland, CA, I bought a Delta 14" drill press with a tapping head and some extra tooling. The old guy selling it said, "This machine bought our house. I worked in the Alameda Naval Yard and got a subcontracting job making brackets. They gave me this drill press. We put it in the basement and my wife ran it all day. When I came home, I'd bring a car load of raw castings. We had dinner and I ran the DP until 11:00 P.M. Weekends, we'd switch off. I'd do days and she'd do nights. Every weekday, I'd take in a car load of brackets and get them checked in. That cost-plus contract on drilling and tapping holes in brackets made us enough to buy this house."

I've still got the drill press and have used it regularly for the past forty-seven years.

jack vines
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Bill Shields
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Re: ww2

Post by Bill Shields »

Our pastor's father in law has an old screw machine with a very similar story.. running the machine bought his house and put all the kids through college.

when you start digging you can find literally millions of mom and pop shops that did exactly as you described to make stuff for the war effort.

The expression 'the country went to war' did not mean just the soldiers...anyone who could make anything had an opportunity to pitch in.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
pete
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Re: ww2

Post by pete »

I'd have to agee with Glenn about this being a really interesting thread. I've run across bits and pieces of information giving just some of the production numbers during the war and the amounts and costs are staggering given the short time the manufacturing industry had to change over from civilian goods to military, produce the number of new factorys to then produce the parts. Then subtract the manpower lost to those doing the fighting. From what some have already said those with home shops were a lot more important than I'd thought. It makes me curious how those with home shops were allocated consumables like cutting tools etc. Manufacturing today has obviously gone to automation, and military tactics and weapon types have totaly changed. But if a situation developed today to cause another non nuclear world war I really can't visualize that we could now come close to repeating what was done then.
John Hasler
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Re: ww2

Post by John Hasler »

I suspect that the home shops operated as subcontractors to companies that issued them what they needed.

I don't know what form it would take, but I'm sure another world war would be as different from WWII as WWII was from WWI. If we repeated what we did in WWII we'd lose.
pete
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Re: ww2

Post by pete »

Yes you probably right about both John. Hopefuly we'll never have to find out about another WW.
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Harold_V
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Re: ww2

Post by Harold_V »

I agree. Especially if it turned in to a nuclear affair. There can be no winners. Mankind, in general, would lose, along with many other life forms.

The world would go merrily on its way, with or without humans, just as it did without the dinosaur. We wouldn't destroy the world---we'd just make it uninhabitable.

Small shops still play a respectable role in machining, or at least they did when I was actively machining. I was one amongst at least a half dozen one or two man shops in the greater Salt Lake Valley when I started my humble operation. Good work, too---aerospace and defense work. As John suggested, some contracts were subbed from larger shops, but most of us dealt directly with the customer. There was all kinds of room for good machining back then.

H
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Rwilliams
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Re: ww2

Post by Rwilliams »

Long ago I worked in a shop that had several machine tools of different manufacture, all with the special plate calling out a war production finish. Mostly paint on cast iron with little or no filler to smooth the castings. One big Pratt-Whitney lathe was most interesting. It did not have the war production finish tag on it but the build plate was dated December 6, 1941. By that time, it seems that good finish work on some machine tools had already been left behind. The big lathe had seen more than a few coats of paint in its lifetime when I was using it and the finish was still nothing to be proud of. The work it produced was always top notch even in the late 1970's.
Mr Ron
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Re: ww2

Post by Mr Ron »

Packard V8 wrote: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:03 pm Sort-of on topic. In 1971, in Oakland, CA, I bought a Delta 14" drill press with a tapping head and some extra tooling. The old guy selling it said, "This machine bought our house. I worked in the Alameda Naval Yard and got a subcontracting job making brackets. They gave me this drill press. We put it in the basement and my wife ran it all day. When I came home, I'd bring a car load of raw castings. We had dinner and I ran the DP until 11:00 P.M. Weekends, we'd switch off. I'd do days and she'd do nights. Every weekday, I'd take in a car load of brackets and get them checked in. That cost-plus contract on drilling and tapping holes in brackets made us enough to buy this house."

I've still got the drill press and have used it regularly for the past forty-seven years.

jack vines
I may have the same model drill press as you. Mine dates back to the late 1930's (round base), model 970. The same castings were used for many years with minor upgrades; one being the round base being replaced by a more traditional rectangular base. I prefer the round base because it makes it easier to move. I acquired this DP sometime in the 1970's and it has been in almost continuous use ever since. They sure don't make them like this anymore. It is a tool I will never part with. I replaced the motor and changed the chuck to a keyless type. Other than that, it is still original. To think this DP is almost as old as I am. BTW, the model 970 back then sold for $32.85 w/o motor.
Mr.Ron from South Mississippi
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