Monarch lathe

All discussion about lathes including but not limited to: South Bend, Hardinge, Logan, Monarch, Clausing and other HSM lathes, including imports

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John Hasler
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Re: Monarch lathe

Post by John Hasler » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:48 am

earlgo wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:22 am
The ATLAS 12" lathe will also engage both lead-screw and cross-feeds at the same time, but I have never tried it. Might be fun to see the flinders fly. :shock:
--earlgo
That's what I was thinking of, but according to the manual I found there is an interlock to prevent that on the 10EE. Seems odd that they would go to the trouble to prevent that but allow the power feeds to run at once.

I wonder if anyone ever built a taper cutting lathe that used this method? With a gearbox for the leadscrew plus a few different crossfeed speeds it would not be hard to get hundreds of different angles. Add a power topslide and you could have a continuous range of tapers. This would be for production, of course, so custom gears would be an option.

whateg0
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Re: Monarch lathe

Post by whateg0 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:41 pm

Yes, the 10ee does have an interlock. there is a push-pull knob for setting the direction of traverse and cross feed. If not in the middle, you cannot engage the leadscrew.

John Hasler wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:48 am
...I wonder if anyone ever built a taper cutting lathe that used this method? With a gearbox for the leadscrew plus a few different crossfeed speeds it would not be hard to get hundreds of different angles. Add a power topslide and you could have a continuous range of tapers. This would be for production, of course, so custom gears would be an option.
Not quite the same method, but yes. It's called CNC! :P

Dave

Harold_V
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Re: Monarch lathe

Post by Harold_V » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:34 pm

John Hasler wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:48 am
Seems odd that they would go to the trouble to prevent that but allow the power feeds to run at once.
The interlock is to prevent damage to the machine. As the lead screw provides a different feed rate from the feed rod, attempting to operate the screw in conjunction with the feed rod would require the carriage to move at two different speeds simultaneously, thus the interlock.
Yeah, I figure you realized that, but some may not. :wink:

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

John Hasler
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Re: Monarch lathe

Post by John Hasler » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:33 pm

Well, I no doubt would if I had a 10EE, but I've never even been in the same room as one.

Surely it is possible to engage the cross-slide power feed without engaging the carriage power feed.

Harold_V
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Re: Monarch lathe

Post by Harold_V » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:31 am

I spent more than a year assigned to a new EE (about a year old) when I was in my apprenticeship, so I am relatively familiar with them. Both the cross feed and longitudinal feed can be engaged simultaneously, as this discussion disclosed. If one could alter the ratio, it would be a pretty nice feature, but as it is, it's just a novelty more than anything.

I've always coveted the EE (and later Monarchs in general) but they were well beyond my ability to buy when I started my humble shop back in '67. Base price for an EE, then, was about $10,000, and that included almost nothing. You still had to buy chucks and other accessories that you'd need. By sharp contrast, my Sag 12 Graziano cost me about $4,700, with change gears (in addition to the quick change, to extend its ability), wrenches, spanner wrenches, face plate, dog plate, an 8" three jaw with master jaws and two sets of hard jaws, and a 10" four jaw, plus the added feature of a two speed motor (which doubled the speed range) which was not offered with the machine when I bought mine. They apparently started offering the two speed some time later, as there are others on the market, but they are not common. They are a very nice machine, but they are not an EE.

The feel of an EE, at least the one I ran, is beyond the feel of other machines. They are built robustly, yet delicately. The carriage is huge (width) compared to other 12" machines, and the ways are quite small. Hand wheels are fragile in appearance, but the machine is extremely robust. The spindle is just a D1-3, but an EE is far more rigid than the Sag 12 Graziano, which has a D1-4 spindle and larger ways. Overall weight, however, finds the Graziano lacking by more than 1,000 pounds when they are compared. I consider the EE to be the finest toolroom lathe built in the US. Others may or may not agree. :-)

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

whateg0
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Re: Monarch lathe

Post by whateg0 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:44 pm

My buddy tried for years to get me to buy an EE after he got his round-dial. Eventually, I found one that was within my budget and I drove to Texas to haul it home. It didn't run, and it has a few other issues from being neglected, but overall, it is a great machine. It is said to weigh about 3200#, and I can imagine that to be entirely true. With some built around 7 hp ac motors, the entirely cast base has to be rigid and it is. The only real drawback to mine is the 20" length. Going from my old 10x30 to this 12.5x20 was a big step down in workspace, but I've managed to deal with it so far. I do still have my other lathe if I ever needed to turn something longer. I bought a used carriage for my EE a few weeks ago from another fella in Texas. He had in his shop a 20" EE and a fully functional, great-looking, 30" EE. Those are well sought after and not real common. If I had and extra $10k laying around it would have followed me home.

Dave

Harold_V
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Re: Monarch lathe

Post by Harold_V » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:27 pm

I've seen only one of the extended EE's, which was in a Boeing facility that was closing down. The added bed length would certainly be an advantage in some cases.

The drive in more modern types is likely to be more reliable. The model I operated, which was built in '56, had the large rectifier tubes in the tailstock. I remained with Sperry Utah for 7½ years, and can recall at least two instances where tube failure was experienced. That can be a good reason to avoid owning one these days, although I understand many have been converted to a different type of drive system. That isn't as easy as it might sound, as the original power supply provided full torque over the entire operating range of the speed control.

I can recall a time when an EE might be purchased off the used machine market for as little as $1,500. The low price was due, in part, to the issues with the failed power supply and the high cost of maintenance.

The price of a new EE escalated to the point of being unreasonable, flirting with $100,000 when the original builder was still in business. It's surprising how so many were sold---a testament to the incredible quality and performance of the machine.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

whateg0
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Re: Monarch lathe

Post by whateg0 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:39 pm

AFAIK, Monarch is still refurbishing them and there is still apparently a market for them, though obviously not among us hobbiests. Yes, the number of EEs that were built and sold is staggering. And it's crazy how many organizations had entire shops full of them. My machine no longer has the motor/generator setup. It does some neat things, like that full torque all the time. I was chastised for removing it and going with a VFD, even though mine did not run when I brought it home. I do lose low end torque. So far it hasn't been a problem because I know about it. I still haven't gotten the backgear attached to the new motor. It's on my list of things to do, but it's a ways down. I still have the DC motor sitting behind the shop, so someday I could put it back in with a modern DC drive, but I doubt it ever happens. I really haven't encountered any difficulties with the conversion. Wiring was dead simple, even with the ELSR - far easier than figuring out all of the spaghetti that came with the MG setup. So, I haven't looked back. I even have the original on and off switches wired up to a contactor so that circuit operates as it did originally.

You know, in all of the discussions I've seen about the drive systems in the EE, I think you are the first person who didn't see the drive as God's gift to man, even the tubes. Most of the time, I see people encouraging others to just replace it with whatever it takes to make the original system work because if there was a better way to do it, Monarch would have done it then!

Dave

John Hasler
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Re: Monarch lathe

Post by John Hasler » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:53 pm

If I had one with the thyratrons I'd be tempted to preserve the control system not because it's superior but just because it's cool. With the motor-generator rig I'd a least add closed-loop control, possibly scrapping the motor-generator, possibly not.

I have a 2 hp dc motor with closed-loop control on my Logan. Continuous speed control without belt changes and full torque down to 5 rpm is nice. I do still need a spindle brake.

BTW replacing those rectifier tubes with solid-state diodes would be trivial.

Harold_V
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Re: Monarch lathe

Post by Harold_V » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:45 am

I'm at a loss to understand anyone's romance with keeping such a machine original, depending on the reason it is owned. I am not a tool collector. I own the machines I do because they do work I hope to accomplish. If I had an EE and had to make a change in the drive system, I'd certainly do so, especially if I could make it operate with the original controls, which I found to be quite user friendly. I'd certainly hope to maintain the low end torque, but if a system could be installed that duplicated original operation, I see no good reason why it shouldn't be installed. I might feel differently if I was trying to "restore" such a machine, but that most likely wouldn't be the case.

It's not that I don't respect what Monarch did when that machine was built. I do---but technology has advanced to the point where there are better ways to achieve the same end. Even Monarch had no issues with changes, which was proven by the various types of drive used. There were at least three different of which I am aware, and likely more than that, as I never made them a study---I just dreamed of owning one silently, then used my Graziano in reality, as I realized it was not to be. It's hard to justify switching machines when you are already tooled up to your satisfaction, and the tooling won't interchange. That D1-3 spindle assured it wouldn't happen with me. The one thing I miss is the spindle speed. The EE I ran had a 3,000 rpm spindle, while my Graziano tops out @ 2,000 rpm. As I specialized in small work, I would have benefitted hugely by having greater spindle speed.

The idea of replacing the tubes with solid state devices has a problem, although I am not aware what the problem is. If it was easy, it would have been done long ago. It may be that the feedback required to provide the necessary power at various speeds isn't possible. I do not know. I do know that the circuitry developed by Monarch was exceptional, in part due to the fact that they could produce full torque at all speeds, and for that they were well known. I expect that's one of the reasons certain individuals are against any modifications.

The third generation drive system likely uses something similar, but I don't know that the addition of the solid state devices is functional, although good sense tells me they should be. Perhaps someone can address that issue, someone who has been there and experienced the need to change.

Incidentally, the sole long bed Monarch EE I spoke of previously, was one of the third generation machines. It did not have the tubes. I did not see it in operation, so I have no idea how it behaved. I expect one would not be disappointed, however. Monarch saw to that, I'm sure.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

LIALLEGHENY
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Re: Monarch lathe

Post by LIALLEGHENY » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:53 am

Now if you wanted a 10ee but it wasn't quite big enough, take a look at the 13ee that Monarch made. Do a search on Google. It's a 10ee on steroids. Not sure what type of drive it has, but I foresee one of these in my future.


Nyle

Harold_V
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Re: Monarch lathe

Post by Harold_V » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:29 am

Fact is, any of the more modern Monarch lathes would provide a level of performance that is hard to beat. The machines built during WW II were geared quite low (not intended for use with carbide), and are also excellent machines, just too slow for comfortable operation.

We had what I believe to be a model 61 at Sperry. It resembled an EE, but larger. Hand wheels were identical, although scaled up for the slightly larger machine. I don't recall the exact swing, but I believe it was 15". The headstock, which was geared, unlike an EE, had four very short handles, side by side, and were either pointed up or down, with which you selected the spindle speeds. Otherwise the machine looked very much like an EE. The machine was equipped with the same threading feature for the cross slide, but lacked many of the features of the EE. It became my second favorite lathe of all time.

Unfortunately for me, I have never seen a 13" EE, nor have I heard of one in the areas in which I spent my time.

The harsh reality is Monarch produced some of the finest of engine lathes. They had a feel very unlike many others. For example, I was assigned to a 17" Axelson for several months. It was one of the most robust of all lathes, and quite accurate, but had a "dead" feel when turning the screws. Hard to describe, but it took some time to get used to the idea that the dimension dialed would be reliable. Nice machine, that Axelson.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

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