Bought a Hardinge Sjogren No2 D1-4

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Abrackeen
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Bought a Hardinge Sjogren No2 D1-4

Post by Abrackeen » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:21 pm

I found a Hardinge Sjogren No2 D4 with a Vicon 2J to 5C adapter this weekend. The chuck turned smooth and looked to be in fairly good shape. I went ahead and bought it as it will hopefully be an upgrade to my import 5C chuck. I had searched forums and eBay trying to find an average price for one with D1-4 camlock, but nothing turned up. I know what the 2J to 5C adapter goes for new by looking it up on Ajax tools. I'm really trying to find out what the chuck in good condition goes for. I'm hoping I didn't get taken for way more than I could ever hope to get back out of it if there is ever a need to part with it down the road. Any help or thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Austin

Harold_V
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Re: Bought a Hardinge Sjogren No2 D1-4

Post by Harold_V » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:31 pm

I purchased my Hardinge-Sjoggren 5C collet chuck new, many, many years ago, for about $400. It did not require an adapter, as you likely understand.

Following comments are my opinion only.

If you managed to acquire the collet chuck for $250 or less, it would be hard to consider the price less than acceptable. All depends on the condition, of course.

The J series has an advantage in that it permits larger diameters to be gripped. On the minus side, the collets are not nearly as available. Assuming the adapter is something that can be removed as required, your choice was quite good.

Some HS collet chucks have an aluminum rim, while others have a rubber coated rim. I've used both and prefer the rubber one by far, in spite of the fact that it tends to blacken one's hands. Much easier to grip.

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

Jaxian
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Re: Bought a Hardinge Sjogren No2 D1-4

Post by Jaxian » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:25 am

Seat of the pants eBay sell prices after following them for years trying to decide if I wanted one was:

2J around $300
5C around $600

Yes twice as much for the 5C, everyone has 5C stuff and no feels like trying to go find a full set of 2J even though functionally they are more useful.

This assumes a unit in good condition working smoothly with a ready to install on the lathe adapter plate on the back. I found a 5C D1-6 mismarked as a 2J and got it for $300. Never seen one of that type (factory D1-6 5C) or condition go for that cheap any time recently so considered it very well bought.

My local used machinery dealer has about 6 or 7 2J type sitting on a shelf and I have never seen one sell. Never seen a 5C hang around for more than a week. Just my observations.

My new Monarch 10EE has a Jacobs rubberflex also. Interested to see how that works. Has a funky factory handwheel tube through head 5C setup too. Common on 10EE's. Going to see if it works ok before I look for Sjorgren. D1-3 tend to be pricey because they fit 10EE's.

Harold_V
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Re: Bought a Hardinge Sjogren No2 D1-4

Post by Harold_V » Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:49 am

Jaxian wrote:My new Monarch 10EE has a Jacobs rubberflex also. Interested to see how that works.
My sole experience with Jacobs rubberflex was on the (then new) EE Monarch I operated for quite some time, years ago in my apprenticeship. My opinion is that you will find it quite useful, as it offers the opportunity to grip bastard diameters, such as hot rolled materials, which often are not on size.

There are two negatives I attribute to the rubberflex collets. One of them is that they are not capable of holding short pieces securely, even when using the included rubber plugs. They work fine for light cuts, but I experienced parts being pulled from the collets on several occasions. If you can grip by more than half the collet length, however, along with the plug, they work quite well.

The other problem I discovered is that when you take extremely heavy cuts, the pattern of the collet can be transferred to the piece being machined. That manifests itself by the material moving away from the tool between segments. It is generally very minor, and can be easily removed with a light pass. Can't think of any other reason to not enjoy having them, and I envy you. Finances permitting, I'd like to own them, myself.

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

Abrackeen
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Re: Bought a Hardinge Sjogren No2 D1-4

Post by Abrackeen » Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:43 pm

Finally mounted the chuck this evening, after adjusting the camlocks to match my 5C collet chuck I was extremely impressed. TIR of less than .0005. Mind you my lathe is a Harbor Freight 12x36. I'm not sure I can improve on that or not. I will probably leave it as is since it is more than close enough for the Airguns I work on.

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SteveM
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Re: Bought a Hardinge Sjogren No2 D1-4

Post by SteveM » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:15 am

The advantage that you have in having the adapter is that you can buy cheap 5C collets for all the sizes up to 1-1/16, and only have to spend the extra money (and time searching) on 2J collets for the larger sizes. 2J goes up to 1-3/8 in full depth and 1-1/2" in a stepped version that can hold short pieces.

Steve

Abrackeen
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Re: Bought a Hardinge Sjogren No2 D1-4

Post by Abrackeen » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:55 am

Steve,

That was precisely one of the reasons I jumped on it. I've got a full set by 64ths and a full set of metric 5C collets. I'll buy everything above 1" as soon as possible, then to stay under the wife's radar, I'll accumulate the other sizes as they pop up.

jscarmozza
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Re: Bought a Hardinge Sjogren No2 D1-4

Post by jscarmozza » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:35 am

I just bought a Hardinge No.2 collet chuck along with a set of round and square 2J collets. A little of the shine came off the purchase when I mounted it and found the work ran 2-3 thousandths out; is that to be expected? I have no experience with collet chucks.

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GlennW
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Re: Bought a Hardinge Sjogren No2 D1-4

Post by GlennW » Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:36 am

It may possibly be the collets and not the chuck.

There is a fairly wide spread of accuracy between collet different manufacturers, Hardinge being one of the best in my opinion.

You might also try indexing the chuck differently on your spindle, and mark it accordingly if you find the best orientation.
Glenn

Operating machines is perfectly safe......until you forget how dangerous it really is!

jscarmozza
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Re: Bought a Hardinge Sjogren No2 D1-4

Post by jscarmozza » Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:41 pm

Glenn the chuck and collets are all Hardinge. I indexed the chuck around the spindle and tried a few different collets, the same runout in all of the set ups.

Harold_V
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Re: Bought a Hardinge Sjogren No2 D1-4

Post by Harold_V » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:12 pm

My Hardinge-Sjogren collet chuck has always had a bit of error (although not as much as has been reported, above). It's not exactly parallel with the spindle centerline, so the farther a part extends, the greater the run-out. I've just lived with the problem, but might be that it could be corrected by grinding, in situ, the tapered portion of the chuck. That's assuming the straight portion, which pilots the rear of the collet, runs true. It may not. I am not aware of any means to alter the running condition.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

jscarmozza
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Re: Bought a Hardinge Sjogren No2 D1-4

Post by jscarmozza » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:22 am

I checked my spindle and it runs true, it appears to be the chuck that has the issue. If I remove the 4 socket head screws from the work side of the chuck, will I be able to index it around to reduce the runout?

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