Dubious Restoration

All discussion about lathes including but not limited to: South Bend, Hardinge, Logan, Monarch, Clausing and other HSM lathes, including imports

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Harold_V
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by Harold_V » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:07 am

spro wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:45 pm
I respect the points you have made. I am not arguing facts but this one was the wrong example.
"rusted clapped out" who is talking that?
I get your drift (I think).
Let's look at it another way. If a machine tool is exposed to water, and the resulting rust is so shallow that it can be wiped off with the palm of the hand, I can see how the machine may not have been damaged. However, if the same water managed to penetrate critical areas, it most likely would not evaporate quickly. That may cause damage that isn't obvious to the eye, and may not even be apparent when the machine is operated. Such damage may well rear its head at a later date. Could be it would be a forgiving situation--with the machine still viable and capable of producing work as intended. That, no one can say.

The picture shown is certainly not that machine. Far from it. It most certainly was altered by the elements to which it was exposed. I could not pronounce it rusted and clapped out, but that much rust certainly raises a red flag for me.

Do I think such a machine should be scrapped? Probably not. It is certainly possible to resurrect the machine so it functions to some degree of satisfaction, so that decision should be left to the individual who will operate the machine. Will it serve in the needed capacity? Will it make parts that are acceptable, or will it demand constant fiddling to get the machine to perform its intended task? Assuming fiddling will be required, is there any assurance that the machine will yield acceptable parts on a reliable basis? If not, I propose to you that the machine is certainly no longer worth owning, but that's simply because the world in which I was trained demanded perfection. It was difficult enough to master the operation of acceptable machine tools without introducing equipment that was not capable, with success achieved strictly by chance.

So then, wars and other situations offered are interesting, but that doesn't change the fact that that rusted machine is most likely to have been diminished in capacity. Some of its useful life was taken by rusting. Maybe all it had left. I don't know. You don't know, but to allow sentiment to override reality is not in anyone's best interest.

Assuming one is to go through the drill of eliminating the rust, as was done, should it ***really*** be represented as a restored machine? (I don't know---was it?)

I don't think so. It appears to me that to be fair to all concerned, it should be represented as a cleaned and painted machine. It also does no harm to keep in mind that paint adds nothing to the quality of a machine tool (although I am quick to say it certainly makes a machine look better). It may look better, but if it doesn't perform to the design level, it's not a restored machine.

I've operated old machine tools. Some of them operate perfectly well, assuming one is happy to operate within the terms of the era from which the machine came. A good example of that was the old Heald model 72A internal grinder (circa 1920) that was used for grinding the bearing housings for the guidance system of the missile. In time, a newer (but still used---circa 1952) machine took its place--a model 252 Heald. Production level doubled, simply because the more modern machine was easier to operate. Both machines were very capable of holding the .0002" tolerance required of the grinding operation.

For lathes and mills, keep your expectations in the time period, and be happy with spindle speeds that are often woefully lacking, certainly too slow to benefit from the use of carbide, and often even HSS. If you harken back to the era of WW I, with all respect to the machines of the time, they are of little use in today's world. Yes, there are exceptions. And, no, I am not down on those who own those old machines. I'm simply trying to address the reality of owning old machine tools.

If one gains nothing else, more acceptable spindle speeds are now available with import machines. They won't rival the quality of the old American built machines, but they are no longer at one's disposal. Neither are buggy whips.

Just sayin'

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

spro
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by spro » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:05 am

It has been near a day since your excellent reply. This has served to warn others from making initial mistakes. Verify.

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liveaboard
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by liveaboard » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:23 am

My old lathe shows clear signs of rust and subsequent restoration.
It's a funky and ancient machine, and accuracy is difficult.
But it has one virtue that brought it into my workspace; I could afford to buy it. The damage, age, and bankrupt Polish manufacturer combined to make this machine cheap.
Of course I'd prefer an undamaged, accurate, heavy duty, high quality machine; but that is not going to happen for me.

Us low budget people have to make do, and sometimes that means 'restored'.

John Hasler
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by John Hasler » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:41 am

Looks to me as if it could have been restored, but it appears that he removed *all* of the rust from the ways. The fact that he doesn't bother to show us that step speaks volumes. He clearly considers it unimportant compared to the painting.

Harold_V
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by Harold_V » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:14 pm

liveaboard wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:23 am
My old lathe shows clear signs of rust and subsequent restoration.
It's a funky and ancient machine, and accuracy is difficult.
Yep, pretty much what I'd expect, considering your description.

I have always coveted the Monarch EE, especially since I was assigned to one when it was just a year old. In its stead, I purchased a new Sag 12 Graziano when it came time to put my money where my thoughts were. I could scarcely afford the Graziano. Paying for a new EE was not in the cards.

Clearly, one does what one can afford. No shame in that, and if it mandates the investment in a rusted machine, so be it. Just don't get involved in such a project with the assumption that you will end up with nice, fresh oats that haven't already been run through the horse. You'll have to be content with what you get. Set your expectations accordingly. After all, your lathe is far better than no lathe.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

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liveaboard
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by liveaboard » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:23 pm

Harold_V wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:14 pm
After all, your lathe is far better than no lathe.
H
Exactly.
After getting used to the funkyness and learning where to expect error, I can usually compensate, at least well enough for the crude work I mostly do.
I love working with my lathe; of the many tools I've had as a semi-pro handyman/ builder, it gives me the most satisfaction.
Rust pits, worn screws, and all.

earlgo
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by earlgo » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:48 pm

Most folks wouldn't use this lathe for a boat anchor, but it is what I have to use, and I am too old to even consider a replacement. So I lean on the carriage when necessary. :roll:
Groove about 003 in deep.JPG
groove in lathe ways about .003 deep
--earlgo
Before you do anything, you must do something else first. - Washington's principle.

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liveaboard
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by liveaboard » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:33 pm

OK! Now we can show off about how bad our lathes are.

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SteveHGraham
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by SteveHGraham » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:31 pm

Now I'm a bad person for criticizing people's lathes, in addition to never recycling, eating red meat constantly, carrying a loaded gun everywhere, saying Caitlyn Jenner is a man, and not liking the Beatles.

I was not trying to insult people's machinery. I was just bummed out to see someone teaching a whole bunch of Youtubers that sandpaper and paint equal restoration.
Every hard-fried egg began life sunny-side up.

Cary Stewart
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by Cary Stewart » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:42 pm

Kind of reminds of the old IAM papers during WWII and he cartoons there in. Out Our Way and Bull Of The Woods. Many of those were about old worn out machines that the company or what ever reason would not rebuild or replace. I remember one in which a young machinist was temporally assigned to a very worn lathe while the normal old hand was out sick. The kid proceeded to remove all the paper and metal shims and wedges, etc. and then tried to make parts to print. All the while the shop foreman and another suit were discussing how old George was going to react when he discovered that his years of work "correcting" the lathe's problems were gone. My Dad, being a precision parts inspector at Lockheed was a mandatory union member so we got the union's new paper. My father was a very strong supporter on unions but hatted the IAM at that time because it was blatantly communist run.
Cary

Cary Stewart
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by Cary Stewart » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:04 pm

I just re watched the video and now wonder why he didn't clean up the rust and paint the change gear face on the front face of the headstock? Strange and some of the sequences of operations seemed off. I wonder what he sold it for or if he "restored" the lathe for his own use? How do you know which wire does what and goes where after you have painted them all gray?
Cary

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Richard_W
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by Richard_W » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:56 pm

John Hasler wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:41 am
Looks to me as if it could have been restored, but it appears that he removed *all* of the rust from the ways. The fact that he doesn't bother to show us that step speaks volumes. He clearly considers it unimportant compared to the painting.
Not showing how he cleaned the ways made me wonder as well.

I have seen surface rust that when removed you could still see the original grinding marks. In one case when measured showed no change that I could measure with a micrometer. In my mind the red flags come up when I see pitting that scotchbrite doesn't remove. This tells me that there is damage in those areas. Then the question becomes, "How much area is damaged and how far apart are the damaged areas?" Is the whole thing pitted or just a few isolated spots? A few isolated spots most likely will not make a noticeable difference in operation, since those spots will hold lubrication if not severe enough to trap grit from normal machining operations. Would a few spots turn me away from a lathe? No it wouldn't. I cleaned up a brand new lathe back in 1973 which was covered in cosmoline and paper. Under the tail stock there wasn't enough cosmoline and a few rust spots were visible. The shop owner wasn't worried about it and cleaned it off himself.

I think that we tend to think in such away that if it isn't perfect, then its no good. That being said, one must realize that a new machine will have a break in period where the ways improve for a time in use when the machine is new. Much the same as an engine works better after a break in period. After which time the lathe/mill/engine begins to deteriorate with use due to wear.

As as far as the video goes it leaves out the important parts to answer if the lathe is worthy at this point of a new paint job?

Richard W.

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