Dubious Restoration

All discussion about lathes including but not limited to: South Bend, Hardinge, Logan, Monarch, Clausing and other HSM lathes, including imports

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mikechoochoo
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by mikechoochoo » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:18 pm

A little off topic, but I've often thought about the old "restored" tractors raffled off at tractor shows. They seem to run good, and the paint is nice but what I wonder about is if repair and paint equals restoration. To me restoration equals returning something to it's as new condition inside and out. With a machine tool that would include scraping or regrinding the dovetails and ways and rebuilding or replacing the travel screws.

John Hasler
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by John Hasler » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:50 pm

"Rattle can restoration" is quite common with old tractors and is a perennial subject on the old tractor forums.

spro
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by spro » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:27 am

This has gotten out of hand. The site about the Rockwell 11 / burtonsattic is too good to be associated with "spray can" restoration.
Every element he tackled was cleaned and repaired to fine useable shape as an assist to others of these lathes. He wasn't trying to "sell it" like others' videos have as the main plan. We don't know what they did to make it pretty but he did an awful lot of work showing the processes.
When I saw the rust on the hand wheels, I knew it had suffered rain much longer than mine. The taper attachment is a beauty and either you know or don't, it required that level of restoration. These lathes aren't all that old to be rained upon but it happened. Mine and possibly his was set out, on a pallet. Into a wind swept area of gravel and metal chips of previous machinery. Doesn't take long for items to go rusted between rain, heat and wind.

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liveaboard
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by liveaboard » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:16 pm

John Hasler wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:50 pm
"Rattle can restoration" is quite common with old tractors and is a perennial subject on the old tractor forums.
I've been restoring mine bit by bit; mainly the pivot bushings, linkages and such.
So after much machining, dismantling and reassembly, the OH asks; "But when are you going to paint it, and fix the face?"

spro
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by spro » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:58 pm

Hi, L. I remember your heavy lathe/ workhorse. All your improvements make it better and You Know that machine well. I know it is rare and I would say of historical significance.

spro
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by spro » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:31 pm

Insofar that series of Rockwell videos; some have been pulled or at least, i can't find. I do think he mentioned Scotch Brite in the earlier ones. I think that we get too picky sometimes. For one thing, the lathe bed and saddle usually have a layer of oil when parked. The saddle is usually parked at the working area of most wear (if any). The lightest of flash rust is representative of one rain, wind and heat. I know about this. Around 20+ years ago I would attend "spot bid" sales at Military Bases. Pallets of things stored inside and outside. The machinery was often outside and there so much metal filings and metal dust, the wind across the gravel would place rust on painted surfaces.

spro
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by spro » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:07 pm

So there was The Rockwell 11 sitting inside the metal building. Bidders had the opportunity to inspect all items for a period of days before sale. I had noted a certain type of item on one of the outside pallets. It was a Master/ Dumore milling attachment set. The wooden box was falling apart and the various parts were spilling out... I noticed that at the back of the headstock of the Rockwell, there was the mount for the Master index, dividing head. ( A dividing head mounted and by expanding collet, turn the lathe's spindle into a dividing head.) The "Master unit had its own motor and height adjustment, speed adjustment and different heads. Anyway, I mentioned that to the person in charge. They moved the lathe out into the weather instead of bringing in the parts of the Master Mill and lumped it all up to many pallets of one bid.

spro
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by spro » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:09 pm

It became that one spot bid was the lathe, Master mill, Lincoln tombstone welder, Wisconsin powered generator and other stuff. I really wanted that Rockwell 11 so it wasn't peanuts. My lathe is the "special" model with taper attachment and every available shelf, drawer has face plates, 3-jaw, 4-jaw Jacobs headstock 900 series chuck, Rubberflex collets , dogs and basic tooling. It is the L00 type spindle.

spro
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by spro » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:30 pm

Perhaps it is only because I was there at the right time to obtain a really nice Rockwell 11. I haven't posted about how it happened before. Probably won't mention it again but it was a good buy at the time. Everything cleaned up fine and it never saw rain again. Everything worked/works now. There will be a time when it requires more than adjustments and lube. The videos show what Does happen and repair.

FKreider
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by FKreider » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:04 am

liveaboard wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:23 am
But it has one virtue that brought it into my workspace; I could afford to buy it...

Of course I'd prefer an undamaged, accurate, heavy duty, high quality machine; but that is not going to happen for me.
BINGO. There are guys out there that make beautiful parts with ancient clapped out machines with three layers (or more) of paint flaking off.
-Frank K.

Harold_V
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by Harold_V » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:05 pm

FKreider wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:04 am
liveaboard wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:23 am
But it has one virtue that brought it into my workspace; I could afford to buy it...

Of course I'd prefer an undamaged, accurate, heavy duty, high quality machine; but that is not going to happen for me.
BINGO. There are guys out there that make beautiful parts with ancient clapped out machines with three layers (or more) of paint flaking off.
Exactly! It just demands more of one's time, and the ability to work around machine shortcomings.
Mastering the art of machining isn't easy. Making chips is. For those who hope to achieve a level of success with a minimum amount of effort, using badly degraded machines isn't the best way to go. All manner of problems are introduced to the experience that could be avoided by choosing machines in better condition. Alternately, one must be willing to settle for a lower degree of success, often at the expense of much greater effort. Only the individual in question will be able to make the determination of which course is correct for them. My thoughts on clapped out machines are far more valuable to me than they are to others, flavored by the work I pursued when I was gainfully engaged.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

spro
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Re: Dubious Restoration

Post by spro » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:25 am

Okay. It has been some hours...Back to the OP, I have cause to be concerned about painted up tractors. Have you seen "tractor pulls" and how it is exciting for a few minutes. Do we know what stress and damage has been done? Sure paint them up and good to go, until the buyer wants to use as intended use. Twisted splines and damaged ring/pinion come to mind. Carnage is a word of double edge. To show the capacity of either is enough for me. I can't see perfectly fine tractors destroying themselves in some battle between the two. Is this the collolus of Rome ? Where very expensive parts, are found to have been DOA . Nice paint job, good enough for your field, right. NOT right imo. Waste and less more around to place in the bull pen.
Less more for serious people to a acquire. They know as we do, serious old tractors. It isn't talking with your Dad or great Uncle. It is talking with grand dad or great great grandfather . They pulled for a purpose and not fighting against themselves.

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