South Bend 9 Original Way Roughing

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Carlos
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South Bend 9 Original Way Roughing

Post by Carlos » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:54 pm

Hi guys

Question, see pics. Does this ways roughing scratches appear to be original or have been done later?
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E0A240D9-49A1-4A0E-B8F9-68F116014A03.jpeg
E665BFEB-1C45-43FC-8B31-476E9B5788D7.jpeg

Harold_V
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Re: South Bend 9 Original Way Roughing

Post by Harold_V » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:04 am

Please bear in mind I an neither a SB expert, nor a noted scraper of machine tools.

I assume you are asking about the flaking of the way surfaces, a process (normally) applied to scraped surfaces with the intended purpose of providing oil retention cavities.

It is my opinion that the flaking applied has most likely been applied well after the machine was sold, and, likely, intended to create the illusion of a machine without wear. I think this way because the flaking is quite irregular, with strokes that are too long when compared to surfaces I've seen scraped and flaked by those with credentials. I may be wrong.

Flaking in and of itself does not equate to scraped surfaces. BP mills, as an example, are flaked, but not scraped. Way surfaces for BP mills are ground.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

Carlos
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Re: South Bend 9 Original Way Roughing

Post by Carlos » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:21 pm

Ok, thanks for your feedback. I actually compared these flakings to pics of SB of their selling catalogue. I believe it looks similar.

Would be great to get an opinion of an SB expert.

Mr Ron
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Re: South Bend 9 Original Way Roughing

Post by Mr Ron » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:00 pm

The flaking marks could be original, since they appear in areas that don't see a lot of sliding from the tailstock and the headstock, but I could be wrong. On my lathe, the scraped areas are worn where the carriage operates, but close to the headstock, the scraping is still very visible, because the carriage doesn't get into that area.
Mr.Ron from South Mississippi

Carlos
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Re: South Bend 9 Original Way Roughing

Post by Carlos » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:34 pm

Hi Ron, could you post a few pics so we can compare the pattern?

pete
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Re: South Bend 9 Original Way Roughing

Post by pete » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:53 pm

Everyone doing scraping or flaking for oil retention will develop there own distinctive pattern if you know enough to recognize it. Moore Tools and possibly some European manufacturer's might be the exceptions to that though.Like Harold I'm neither a South Bend or scraper expert, but I'd be quite surprised that irregular pattern was ever done at the SB factory. And logically there would be no reason to add it under the head stock. I could be wrong, but my guess is the same and I'd almost bet it was done long after the machine left the factory by someone less experienced than a real professional.

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SteveM
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Re: South Bend 9 Original Way Roughing

Post by SteveM » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:21 pm

pete wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:53 pm
I'd be quite surprised that irregular pattern was ever done at the SB factory. And logically there would be no reason to add it under the head stock.
Actually, old catalog photos clearly show scraping on the ways all the way to the end of the headstock end.
Image

Steve

pete
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Re: South Bend 9 Original Way Roughing

Post by pete » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:17 pm

That front way scraping does make at least aesthetic sense Steve since not doing it there would appear odd and the machine left unfinished. And your picture certainly shows actual scraping and not the irregular poorly done attempt at flaking in Carlos's post. I can see proper scraping being done under the head stock to make corrections for final alignments. That's not unusual. But oil flaking seems more than doubtful since there's still no gain for doing so and that area is covered by the head sock anyway. Even if it was done for any reason I can't think of I'm still certain it would have been done far better than what's shown in Carlos's post. The better manufacturer's seemed to mostly favor that distinctive half moon flaking for oil retention which may or may not have been the case with South Bend. But I can't recall ever seeing a picture of any SB lathe with that widely spaced and irregular pattern. There's been more than a few posts on the PM forums showing or mentioning poorly done flaking by less than honorable used machine tool dealers to make the machine appear in much better condition to the less knowledgeable since it's fast and fairly easy to do for little cost. My best guess is because the head stock would have needed to be removed on Carlos's lathe to add it then it was most likely done by an amature previous owner and not by SB.

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SteveM
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Re: South Bend 9 Original Way Roughing

Post by SteveM » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:28 pm

pete wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:17 pm
There's been more than a few posts on the PM forums showing or mentioning poorly done flaking by less than honorable used machine tool dealers to make the machine appear in much better condition to the less knowledgeable since it's fast and fairly easy to do for little cost.
Agreed that it is nowhere near the level of South Bend's work.

The fact that the flaking is worn off in the carriage ways near the headstock would indicate that if that were the case, that it would have been done a long time ago, as the marks have since worn off in that area.

Steve

Mr Ron
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Re: South Bend 9 Original Way Roughing

Post by Mr Ron » Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:11 pm

I think the scraping as seen on the SB brochure was enhanced photographically as per standard procedure by a draftsman. A photograph shows up bland when printed, so highlights are added and enhanced to make the lathe stand out. I will try to take a picture of the ways on my lathe, which are hand scraped, not flaked.
Mr.Ron from South Mississippi

spro
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Re: South Bend 9 Original Way Roughing

Post by spro » Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:33 am

My South Bend 9A was made in 1951. The unused areas of the ways closely resemble the frosting of Carlos' lathe.

spro
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Re: South Bend 9 Original Way Roughing

Post by spro » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:19 am

The forward/reverse tumbler gear lever below the spindle gear, hasn't a fixed lock. Every time it needs reversing, it must be positioned to what we think is correct gear lash.. That is what they did. It was a different time. Here 3/4 century later, we expect perfection. One bad gear generates wrong profile to the train of many.
I won my S.B. 9A at an auction in Maryland. It was a beautiful day, in retrospect. I must have had my van then. It wouldn't have fit into the Landcruiser but don't remember now. I remember chaining the back doors to retain things. Those were days when our spirits were high and the hinges and engines and structures were sound. All rotted away over decades but the 9A sits in the basement, ready for another day.

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