Headstock Lubrication Fiasco

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Bill Shields
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Re: Headstock Lubrication Fiasco

Post by Bill Shields » Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:24 pm

which is exactly why to not remove the nut / gear on the tail end
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Re: Headstock Lubrication Fiasco

Post by Harold_V » Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:11 am

I dunno---maybe I'm just thick (a distinct possibility), but I don't see the sight glass location on the exploded view of the headstock. Are they not there, or am I just missing them? It would be interesting to see how they relate to the bearing locations, and how the oil ports are sealed when oil is not being introduced.

With the top cover removed, is there evidence of a lubrication reservoir of some sort? Maybe one for each bearing? I tend to think the oiling is a total loss system. Sight glass is, for all practical purposes, useless, although it would show when oil was introduced, but indications are it does now show if oil is at the bearing, or not. In order to do that, the bearing must have some means of holding oil, so the level would rise above the bottom of the sight glass.

H
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rmac
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Re: Headstock Lubrication Fiasco

Post by rmac » Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:15 am

Bill Shields wrote: were it me..I would take off #103 and look for lube. If you find it -> maybe best to assume that the 'tail end' is also ok.

getting #103 of is generally a lot easier than #133 -> the removal of which is also going to require removal of the locknut / ring tab and gear...
Good news. The spindle cover #103 came off without a fight to reveal a very nice roller bearing that--while not exactly dripping with oil--was definitely not dry. The gasket and seal also looked to be in good shape, so I appear to have dodged a bullet. Also, since the other bearing has been getting the same random squirts of oil, I agree that it's not worth the disassembly that would be required to inspect it.

Thanks one more time to everyone for the help.

-- Russell Mac

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Re: Headstock Lubrication Fiasco

Post by rmac » Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:49 am

Harold_V wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:11 am
I dunno---maybe I'm just thick (a distinct possibility), but I don't see the sight glass location on the exploded view of the headstock. Are they not there, or am I just missing them? It would be interesting to see how they relate to the bearing locations, and how the oil ports are sealed when oil is not being introduced.

With the top cover removed, is there evidence of a lubrication reservoir of some sort? Maybe one for each bearing?
The sight glasses are shown in the parts diagram. One is labeled 94 and the other one is not labeled.

Here's a picture of the actual headstock that should clear things up. Looking inside the headstock, there is kind of a lump in the casting where each of the two bearings lives. I'm pretty sure each of those lumps forms a reservoir for the bearing within. When I blew into the sight glasses yesterday, air came out of the little holes I've marked 'A' in the picture. I'm guessing those holes are there so air can escape when you add oil. The little knurled plugs marked 'B' unscrew to reveal the oil filler ports.

As we thought yesterday, I still think the sight glasses will give the desired indication as long as the oil level is higher than the hole that extends rearward from them into the casting.

-- Russell Mac

headstock.jpg

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Re: Headstock Lubrication Fiasco

Post by Harold_V » Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:01 am

Thanks, Russell. Seeing a photo really helps. I saw those two items but wasn't sure that's what they were. Without seeing any potential oil ports nearby only added doubt.
I tend to agree that the holes in question are likely vents. I now wonder what happens when you introduce more than a squirt of oil. It has to go somewhere. Have you tried adding more than a few drops to see if, by chance, it does rise in the sight glass? Also, assuming you try this (with the top removed for observation) what happens with the excessive oil?

What lubes those two gears sets I see? There obviously isn't an oil reservoir near, otherwise the belt would be saturated.

H
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Re: Headstock Lubrication Fiasco

Post by rmac » Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:51 am

Harold wrote: I now wonder what happens when you introduce more than a squirt of oil. It has to go somewhere. Have you tried adding more than a few drops to see if, by chance, it does rise in the sight glass?
I haven't added oil since I removed the spindle cover to check for a dry bearing. That's the next step.
Harold wrote: Also, assuming you try this (with the top removed for observation) what happens with the excessive oil?
If you filled the oil beyond the point where the sight glass was full, and without the standpipe arrangement that Bill suggests, I think the oil would just overflow the input port and dribble down the sides of the headstock.
Harold wrote: What lubes those two gears sets I see? There obviously isn't an oil reservoir near, otherwise the belt would be saturated.
Those are oiled as necessary (when back gear is in use) by the operator, who does his best to keep the belt and pulleys dry. (The Grizzly manual says to grease the gears manually, but somebody here (I think it was pete) advised using oil instead because grease mixes with dirt to make a sticky grinding compound. That makes sense to me.)

-- Russell Mac

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Re: Headstock Lubrication Fiasco

Post by Harold_V » Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:04 am

In regards to open gears, like those shown, there's a lubricant that can be used. I agree that you run the risk of trapping dirt, by I've used such a product on my headstock banjo gears since 1967 and have not suffered any consequences. I do admit that my gears are covered, but not sealed from the environment.

The grease I use is a spray on---almost black in color, made by Keystone. The stuff I have is now obsolete, but I'm pretty sure they offer an equivalent. It goes on quite fluid, from a spray can, but evaporates quickly. It's extremely sticky stuff--once applied it remains until it's washed off with a solvent. It doesn't migrate much, but it does migrate to some degree. When the gears are in operation there's a steady stream of strings of grease running from the crest of the gears, and they are very sparsely covered. I am not suggesting that it would be a good choice for your machine, just rambling. However, assuming the gear cavity is reasonably well enclosed, I suspect it could be a good choice. Just sayin', mind you. Not making a recommendation. All depends on how isolated the chamber is from the atmosphere, really.

Depending on if the bearings have double seals, you may discover that the oil level might sustain itself in the sight glasses once it's filled adequately. It all hinges on being sealed properly. If, by chance, any of the seals are a labyrinth type, that, of course, wouldn't be possible.

H
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Bill Shields
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Re: Headstock Lubrication Fiasco

Post by Bill Shields » Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:47 am

The picture you sent is the same lathe that I have.

I unscrew thr fill fittings and put in short standpipes as described.

To keep all of the oil running out courtesy of Sir Isaac, I put some felt in the bottom of the pipe as kind of a poor man's needle valve experiment. It works well and has been in place since 1980.

I was going to get a drip feed glass with adjustable needle but what the heck..
Too many things going on to bother listing them.

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Re: Headstock Lubrication Fiasco

Post by RSG » Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:52 am

Good thread! At first I thought the same as Pete regarding gear oil for the headstock but after seeing the pics it's apparent this is a totally different set up. Moly Grease would be a good candidate for those internal gears near that pulley belt.
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GlennW
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Re: Headstock Lubrication Fiasco

Post by GlennW » Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:23 am

I have the same lathe that I bought new in 1981.

I keep oil in it up to the sight glass mark and it's run fine all of this time.

The max rpm is 1050, so the bearings just need what little oil the headstock was designed to provide.
Glenn

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Re: Headstock Lubrication Fiasco

Post by LIALLEGHENY » Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:36 pm

Just a stupid thought, but back in the day weren't these lathes offered as both geared head and belt drive? Might the headstock casting have been used on both versions, with the geared head version using the drip oilers with sight glass, and on the belt drive machines they were included but not necessary....if not just disregard my rambling.
What I would say is you ever were to replace these bearings, get some good quality sealed bearings instead and use Kluber spindle bearing grease in them. You'll never have to touch them again. Kluber is the go-to grease for CNC machines, spindles , ball screws, linear ways etc. A little pricey but well worth it.

Nyle

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Bill Shields
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Re: Headstock Lubrication Fiasco

Post by Bill Shields » Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:24 pm

Never seen this model as a gear head...no place to mount a changer...let alone place for the gears.

The company did offer gear units..but the entire head casting is different.

Not terribly sure a sealed grease bearing in this application is a good move...better bearings for sure.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.

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