Manual Lathe is Dead

All discussion about lathes including but not limited to: South Bend, Hardinge, Logan, Monarch, Clausing and other HSM lathes, including imports

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armscor 1
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Manual Lathe is Dead

Post by armscor 1 »

https://youtu.be/-5SvxI2whGU
Hi Guys, this is worth watching.
pete
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Re: Manual Lathe is Dead

Post by pete »

Thanks for the link Armscor, an interesting video for sure. The mechanicals and even servos, ball screws etc wouldn't be a maintenance issue in the future since off the shelf items could be adapted in one way or another. But what happens when/if the machine is no longer being supported for the boards in it's brain box? I do like how they have a 3 speed range of settings to mechanically increase the torque the VFD can deliver. There's even some fairly sophisticated aircraft tech with adjustable force feed back and machine by wire on the hand wheels. Somebody put a lot of thought into that lathe. I'd agree for commercial shops something like this or even full cnc then a manual only lathe is out dated. For most of us at the hobby level, manual only machine tools will never fully disappear though. There's also at least one fairly reasonable system on the market to pretty much do the same turning and threading set ups on most of our smaller lathes that this can if one really wanted it. And there's one specifically designed for the Hardinge HLV's as well.
rrnut-2
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Re: Manual Lathe is Dead

Post by rrnut-2 »

That control panel would have to move. Most of the regulatory agencies that I have worked with would have a fit over the operator
reaching over the work/bed to reach controls. I share Pete's thoughts on the rest of it.

Jim B
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Bill Shields
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Re: Manual Lathe is Dead

Post by Bill Shields »

nothing new....

manual looking machines with hand-wheels that drive encoders and have servos have been around for years (decades)

Ever seen a Bridgeport EZ Path?

as for 'conversational programming'.....well...that has been around for best part of 40 years..

like everything else - as mentioned...as soon as the electronics is no longer supported....
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
RSG
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Re: Manual Lathe is Dead

Post by RSG »

Interesting! That company is a few hours from me. My friend in Ohio that owns a grinding/machine shop has several of those hybrids.
Vision is not seeing things as they are, but as they will be.
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tornitore45
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Re: Manual Lathe is Dead

Post by tornitore45 »

The problem with rotary encoder to drive the motions is that the "feel" is not just a matter of torque or resistance to rotation. The feel is your hand reading the tool. Is it dull? Above center and not grabbing, is it struggling, cutting, rubbing or whatever.
Mauro Gaetano
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Bill Shields
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Re: Manual Lathe is Dead

Post by Bill Shields »

Actually..generalky with these things -> the encoder is attached to the screw or rack.

Handwheel drives screw / encoder / servo
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
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tornitore45
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Re: Manual Lathe is Dead

Post by tornitore45 »

So is like power steering? You do the direct drive but the servo help more or less depending on the feedback gain setting.
Mauro Gaetano
in Austin TX
Richard_W
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Re: Manual Lathe is Dead

Post by Richard_W »

I didn't like the video, but then I have been in the trade over 50 years. I still work in the trade and where I work we have both CNC and manual lathes and mills. In the last 4 years we have bought 3 new manual mills (Bridgeport type with 50 taper spindles) and 1 new 21" lathe. Also we have bought 3 brand new CNC mills and 1 flatbed CNC lathe. All the machines are run most of the time. Parts are an issue for older CNC machines. For instance a Haas lathe built in 1997 many parts aren't made. We had to get a rebuilt processor and it cost $10,000 installed with exchange for the old one. So they could refurbish it and sell it to someone else. We had to get a third party to rework the Z axis ball screw. We couldn't buy a new one. The cog belt pulleys for the encoder were shot. We had to find a stock ones that the OD and tooth count matched the original. Then had to bore them out to fit. I am very much afraid that CNC machines were meant to be replaced and not fixed. So many parts for older CNC's are not to be had and upgrades are so expensive.
pete
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Re: Manual Lathe is Dead

Post by pete »

Nope more like today's fully electronic automotive throttles Mauro. There's no direct mechanical link between the hand wheels and the servos moving the slides. The rotary encoder drives probably back through it's program and then to the servo that drives the ball screw. But that lathe system is a bit more sophisticated if everything mentioned in the video is true. It artificially provides an adjustable force feed back to the hand wheel so it's a fairly close representation of the machine feel you'd have on a manual only machine. Pushing the machine to take a larger feed rate takes more effort on a manual machine and lighter feed rates obviously less. There's no way to judge how well there system works without a hands on trial though. Personally I'd think that artificial feel might be more useful for entry level people since with more experience that tells you to pay attention to a lot of other clues about how the machine and cutting tool are performing. Sound of the load on the motor, cutting tool reaction and sound, chip formation, surface finish etc. And afaik that force feed back or fly by wire with electrical controls was first invented for the more modern fighter jets and then moved into passenger jets. It was pretty high tech and expensive for quite awhile.

That artificial feel probably doesn't even sound like it would be really needed to most. But its more important than it might seem. As an example, I ran a whole lot of hydraulic only mining equipment that has a fair amount of direct control feed back. Then I started training on 1970 era P&H 1900 electric rope shovels with electrical controls. There's zero sensory feed back with that type of control and you then have to go by sound and visual clues about what the machine is doing. That was the toughest thing to learn in the beginning. Once you do get it figured out (usually a few weeks at least) it's no longer a problem and you begin to automatically compensate for what your seeing and hearing. The much more modern electric mining shovels today use and may still do a much better spring loaded joy sticks to provide that hands on feel to the operator. So for sure people with lower experience levels on these lathes would have the same issues to start with. But an already experienced and good manual machinist probably wouldn't need it while using only the hand wheels since they'd already have a pretty fair idea of what the cutting parameters should be for a machine of that size.

I also think Richard nailed it that once an industrial machine is no longer being supported it's probably time to scrap it. It doesn't take many of those expensive modifications and repairs before the machine is no longer cost effective to keep operational.
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liveaboard
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Re: Manual Lathe is Dead

Post by liveaboard »

Shopping for my mill, I saw tons and tons of good looking machine tools that had electronic problems.
Like Richard pointed out, professional shops don't have time to waste on things that don't work.

Very few home shop people can deal with cnc control problems on orphan machines. There are a hundred such machines for sale for each person who wants one. Huge mills for scrap price, come on down, make an offer PLEASE.

Even the mill I bought had undisclosed electrical problems, and even though it was just dinosaur relay controls not many home shop guys could have fixed it.

So I disagree, I don't think manual lathes are dead at all.
I think they're alive and well in workshops all over the planet, and will continue to be.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Manual Lathe is Dead

Post by Bill Shields »

Decades ago I purchased an old nc Bridgeport with a bad control.

Took a block of wood and a fire axe with me and took only the machine and left the control behind in the parking lot.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
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