Which lathe?

All discussion about lathes including but not limited to: South Bend, Hardinge, Logan, Monarch, Clausing and other HSM lathes, including imports

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pat1027
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Re: Which lathe?

Post by pat1027 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:45 am

VelocityDuck wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:00 pm
Right. But a well used Hardinge compared to a pristine Atlas "flexible flyer"? Or a well used Hardinge vs. a well used Clausing?
It's dependent on condition, price and the individual. The needs of a home machinist differ from a machinist making his living with the machine(s).

I have a well used 9" South Bend dating from the late 20's. Looking at the ways it has some hours on it but it's not worn out. Used within the capability of a 9" machine with a 1/3HP motor it does a fine job. Parts are an E-Bay crap shoot. Fortunately other than felts I have not needed any.

So a well used Hardinge at the right price could be a great machine. A pristine Atlas would outlast me. With a price differential putting a Hardinge out of reach I would not be afraid of the Atlas. If the Hardinge needed repairs/rebuild I would forgo it and take the pristine Atlas preferring to make parts vs. repair a machine. It would be a slower machine but my skill level and needs don't support a fast machine.

pete
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Re: Which lathe?

Post by pete » Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:39 pm

It's also not a direct apples - apples comparison either. There's fairly involved intricacies in design throughout the whole machine. Yes there both lathes and both cut metal. At the simple end and with everything else being equal, a heavier machine is going to be more accurate, produce better surface finishes and (generally) last longer. Mass also = rigidity, and rigidity is everything with machine tools. Look at the weight of those HLV's verses swing and distance between centers. And if I remember the specification correctly, those HLV's are guaranteed to have under 40 millionths spindle run out from the factory. From there it starts getting more complicated. For example the distance across the lathe bed way center lines verses there swing, and length of the carriage ways on those bed ways. Those two items alone when designed properly allow more stability to the components doing the actual work. And the further spread out they are the more stable and repeatable they are. The Monarch EE lathes as just one example plainly show those features were important to it's initial design. And there another lathe that's famous world wide for there accuracy. Bigger almost always means more HP, more HP with enough of that rigidity to justify the higher HP means larger depths of cut. That equals time savings and even better tool life.

It's also not just heavier and larger that are important, the machines individual parts design, durability, the built in accuracy level the factory made the machine to and multiple hundreds of other items equals what you'll get and what the machine can can physically do time after time and how long it can keep doing so. Even how the machine is initially set up in it's permanent location is very important if you expect the best accuracy it's capable of. And then there's the operators own skills and ability's. Simply owning a lathe is a lot different than actually being capable of operating one to it's full potential. That's why there's REAL machinist's and then us hobbyist's, although there are I think quite a few here who could easily be judged as both. ALL machine tools will deflect under a cut, how much is also extremely important and directly related to there design and capabilities. That's part of the heavier = better concept. Since you've owned aircraft I'll put it in that perspective, you wouldn't chose a Piper Cub for regular Atlantic or Pacific crossings. You'd want a heavier, larger, better designed and at least twin engine aircraft with a large fuel range. And you'd always want something in very good condition verses one verging on the FAA grounding it. And successfully making the trip itself has far better chances for a pilot with multiple years on multi engine aircraft verses a student pilot.

Like anything else there's always plus/minuses with every machine tool. And none are ever perfect at every task, budget, size etc no matter how well made or expensive it is. About all you can do is decide on something as close as possible to what your wanting it to do on average. And as always that inevitable budget dictates how close you can get to that ideal machine with the most accuracy. Then there's machine options. As just a single example, a full gear box with dozens of built in selections for imperial and metric threading is great. A more basic change gear lathe can sometimes be more versatile if you ever get outside what that built in gear box can do. Although there's also some that allow additional change gears between the spindle and that gear box to then allow even more changes to what those built in ratios can do. But if you refuse to ever single point threads and just use taps and dies, then the only gain is the gear box would at least allow multiple feed rates. The trade off with the more basic change gear machine is time to switch feed rates or thread pitches. At the hobby level the time is less important for most, it's still something to consider though. Unless you spend a huge amount, I honestly don't think it's possible for a more entry level person to chose a single one time purchase lathe. Needs, wants, and even project size change over the years with most ending up going larger or having more than one lathe. There's also enough I haven't mentioned that could easily fill up a War & Peace sized book.

VelocityDuck
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Re: Which lathe?

Post by VelocityDuck » Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:43 am

I found an Enco 12x36 Gearhead Lathe (110-2079) up near Birmingham (about 250 miles). I looked at http://www.lathes.co.uk/ but they don't list Enco. I've seen their milling machines and haven't heard horrible things from the people that use them. But I didn't even know they made lathes.

Size is about what I'm looking for. This one is listed for $2,500 with no mention of tooling or accessories. Seems like the price is on the high side. It doesn't look too bad in the pictures.

Any known gotcha's with this brand if I make the trip to look at it?

pete
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Re: Which lathe?

Post by pete » Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:52 pm

Enco didn't make machine tools, they were a dealer large enough to have machine tools made with there name on them. However EMCO did and does make excellent machine tools in Austria, a completely different large step up in quality, fit, finish, accuracy with them. The two should never be confused just in case you were to ever run across something with their name on it.

It's highly likely that Enco was either a mainland China or with a bit of luck Taiwan made. To start you need to find out the spindle nose mount, threaded, D1 series cam lock, or other. One of the additions most but not all 12" swing lathes will have is a back gear. Highly desirable to get the the slow rpm/high torque that allows. Any missing gear teeth on any gear would kill any deal for me. Is this lathe a gear head for spindle speed changes or belt drive? Condition of both head stock and tail stock bores is extremely important, checking with a finger as far in as you can reach for rust, burrs etc will work. Those get damaged from users plugging already damaged/rusted male Morse Taper tooling into the female tapers and in some cases the tooling spinning in the bore. Drill chucks for example. If you wouldn't literally eat off the Morse Taper it has no business going into that taper. Crash damage, if you know what to look for it's obvious, chuck jaw marks on the front of the top slide, marks on the head stock side of the cross slide etc. How clean and well oiled the lathe is right now might be a half decent indicator for how it was generally looked after. Run it!!!! and check speeds, gear box settings etc including the back gear if it's got that. Obvious signs of wear on the bed ways, how much back lash in the feed screws, how well the half nuts engage/disengage. A confirmed list of tooling if any, with 3 jaws chucks make sure both sets of jaws are with it. A lot of these lathes had at least some addition loose gears even with a gear box. Get some good pictures of what it is and try to match it up with Google image searches using the brand/size and any model number if there is one. Sometimes that might pull up what the lathe came with as far as those extra gears etc.

John Evans
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Re: Which lathe?

Post by John Evans » Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:20 pm

Look at "Lathes.UK" under generic Taiwan lathes,you will find several that will match up. I bought a new 12X36 "Acraturn" sold by Rutland tool in 05 ,mainland China nears as I could tell. Gearhead ,was a exlent machine.About $2200 at that time, same thing PM,Grizzly now north of $42-4500. When I started down sizing a bit sold it to a Gal I knew for $2700,and that was friend price several years ago. Kept the 12X36 VS Clausing because it has a taper attachment,and have turned down $3500 at that time for it. That Enco would have come with 3-4 jaw chucks,steady and follow rest and a face plate. 3-4 loose gears for metric. They also usualy had a hardened bed. I actually prefer a gear head to any of the VS types. Go look at the dang thing !! :roll:
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VelocityDuck
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Re: Which lathe?

Post by VelocityDuck » Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:00 pm

Finally found something! It was an 8 hour drive round trip to get it home.

South Bend 10". Don't know if it's a 10L or 10K at this point. No plate on the outside of the gearbox and the Catalog No and Bed Length boxes on the thread plate are empty. It doesn't appear anything was ever stamped there. The person I bought it from said that he was told it was an old navy machine that had been on a submarine (no idea if that's true). I did find a number stamped on the inside of the gearbox cover. I also found a number stamped on the leadscrew support. Appears to be 5R7SM F (it's upside down).

I haven't got it hooked up yet.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Which lathe?

Post by Bill Shields » Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:12 pm

Measure the bore in the headstock. That will tell you if it is a heavy 10. If it will take a 5C collect it is a heavy 10

I live on one doing small work and am much happier with it than Asian prior unit.

The flat belt is a drawback for heavy work but as a hobby machine...who cares...if it is accurate and does what you want/need.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.

VelocityDuck
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Re: Which lathe?

Post by VelocityDuck » Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:39 pm

Spindle bore is too big for a 5C collet. On the chuck end the bore is about 1-5/8". On the gearbox end it's a little over 1-3/8" (closer to 1-13/32"). The outside of the chuck is 2-1/4" x 8TPI.

I think it was on practicalmachinist.com that I found a post that said that makes it a 10L as opposed to a 10K or 10R.

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Bill Shields
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Re: Which lathe?

Post by Bill Shields » Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:51 pm

That is a 10K

The 5C fits in a sleeve holder
Too many things going on to bother listing them.

John Evans
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Re: Which lathe?

Post by John Evans » Sun Apr 03, 2022 10:59 pm

Bill Shields wrote:
Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:51 pm
That is a 10K

The 5C fits in a sleeve holde
No Bill 10K had small spindle bore,1-3/8 makes it a heavy 10 . 10L
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John Evans
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Re: Which lathe?

Post by John Evans » Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:01 pm

VelocityDuck wrote:
Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:00 pm
Finally found something! It was an 8 hour drive round trip to get it home.

South Bend 10". Don't know if it's a 10L or 10K at this point. No plate on the outside of the gearbox and the Catalog No and Bed Length boxes on the thread plate are empty. It doesn't appear anything was ever stamped there. The person I bought it from said that he was told it was an old navy machine that had been on a submarine (no idea if that's true). I did find a number stamped on the inside of the gearbox cover. I also found a number stamped on the leadscrew support. Appears to be 5R7SM F (it's upside down).

I haven't got it hooked up yet.
That is a Heavy 10 with a taper attachment ! SCORE !!The 1-3/8 spindle bore tells the tale. You need the special adapter and some kind of draw tube arrangement to use 5-C collets.
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Bill Shields
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Re: Which lathe?

Post by Bill Shields » Mon Apr 04, 2022 6:34 am

Oops...spell checker stripes again...
Too many things going on to bother listing them.

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