What is the difference between a "Toolroom Lathe" and an "Engine Lathe"? Is it the accessories or something more fundamental? For examples, here are a couple of Clausings currently on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... egory=1272
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... egory=1272
Thanks, Charles [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/confused.gif"%20alt="[/img]
Toolroom vs. Engine Lathe
Re: Toolroom vs. Engine Lathe
Toolroom lathes are of smaller capacity but are extremley precise. Examples are the Hardinge HLV, Monarch 10EE, etc. Engine lathes are more common and are built in much larger sizes as well. If you. as most hobby people, don't require sub .001" precsion, the engine lathes are generally much less expensive, which leaves more funds for tooling and accesories. Not to say that I wouldnt love to have one of the aformentioned lathes in my shop, but it would be an expensive option. One would also have to have the skills to utilize such accuracy, which I don't have.
Measure it with a mic, mark it with chalk, cut it with an axe!
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little-doodie
Re: Toolroom vs. Engine Lathe
Generally a tool room lathe is set up with tooling for more precision work.
A engine lathe is set up for more metal removal capability.
That does not mean a used tool room lathe is more accurate.
I know South bend lathes have bigger dials on the tool room lathe.
The accuracy is still the same.
A engine lathe is set up for more metal removal capability.
That does not mean a used tool room lathe is more accurate.
I know South bend lathes have bigger dials on the tool room lathe.
The accuracy is still the same.
Re: Toolroom vs. Engine Lathe
As little-doodie says, on a South Bend it is usally the accessories that make it a toolroom lathe. Taper attachment, collet closer, and collet rack on a 10" South Bend engine lathe makes it a toolroom lathe. Not sure on the Clausing.
The thing this "engine lathe" has going for it is a taper attachment, but for the difference in price, you could buy one and still make out better with the first lathe. Of the two you listed, the first (the one listed as a toolroom lathe) is by FAR the better deal. It is more completely tooled, and if you notice has 50% more power. It has a 1.5hp motor, where the other one is only 1hp.
I'd want at least 1.5hp on a 12" lathe and more if I could get it. I have the original 1.5hp single-phase instant-reverse motor on the 10" South bend at the museum and it just ain't enough for serious heavy cuts.... of course I may be spoiled on that 25hp Pacemaker...
The thing this "engine lathe" has going for it is a taper attachment, but for the difference in price, you could buy one and still make out better with the first lathe. Of the two you listed, the first (the one listed as a toolroom lathe) is by FAR the better deal. It is more completely tooled, and if you notice has 50% more power. It has a 1.5hp motor, where the other one is only 1hp.
I'd want at least 1.5hp on a 12" lathe and more if I could get it. I have the original 1.5hp single-phase instant-reverse motor on the 10" South bend at the museum and it just ain't enough for serious heavy cuts.... of course I may be spoiled on that 25hp Pacemaker...
18x72 L&S, Fosdick 3ft radial, Van Norman 2G bridgemill, Van Norman #12, K. O. Lee T&C grinder, Steptoe-Western 12X universal HS shaper, 16spd benchtop DP, Grob band filer, South Bend 10L
Re: Toolroom vs. Engine Lathe
The distinction between tool room and engine lathe is just a matter of terminology. It seems to be a nice buzz-word to sell a machine. There are no firm hardware distinctions between tool room and engine lathes.
In some shops it used to refer to the machine kept in a prototype/tooling area where it's use was restricted so as not to wear it out. Hence the name, toolroom lathe.
With the widespread use of CNC the terms even become more meaningless. Most CNC lathes will easily do the work that was of such a high tolerance nature that it formerly needed to be done on a toolroom lathe capable of holding the tolerances.
In some shops it used to refer to the machine kept in a prototype/tooling area where it's use was restricted so as not to wear it out. Hence the name, toolroom lathe.
With the widespread use of CNC the terms even become more meaningless. Most CNC lathes will easily do the work that was of such a high tolerance nature that it formerly needed to be done on a toolroom lathe capable of holding the tolerances.
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gmacoffline
Re: Toolroom vs. Engine Lathe
There's a fair amount of history on the various websites for lathes on this, makes for some interesting reading if you enjoy that sort of thing.
In historical origin, an 'engine lathe' is a term from the generation of shops where there was a central power source for the plant - the machines that were driven from the overhead belt were named for their function such as lathe, drillpress, etc. Some machines that had their very own motor as part of their design were often given a different name to identify this feature. the term "engine" refers to the motor driving the lathe versus it being driven by an external source of other design -it does not refer to doing any machining operations on the lathe.
the toolroom lathe is/was usually an engine lathe but often because the toolroom was frequently located farther away from the central lineshaft, and the machines were used less often so they didnt need the continuous power that the production line did. as the central lineshaft concept faded and machines all got their own electric powerplant, the term seems to live on.
there seems to be little or no widely-acceptedl definition of the exact necessary features for a "toolroom" lathe, although many units called 'toolroom' were the smaller and more accurate versions of their production counterparts. Many of these machines were used actually to make production runs of parts that needed precision or special functions not ordinarily found on the general purpose machines.
From the historical use - the toolroom unit usually had various rests and taper equipment, often had factory-designed accessories for special functions like post grinding, armature work, etc. Southbend lists a large variety of factory-designed accessories and tooling for its workshop precision lathes and I dont see the term 'toolroom' used in its 1937 catalog so the term may not have been in wide use then.
In historical origin, an 'engine lathe' is a term from the generation of shops where there was a central power source for the plant - the machines that were driven from the overhead belt were named for their function such as lathe, drillpress, etc. Some machines that had their very own motor as part of their design were often given a different name to identify this feature. the term "engine" refers to the motor driving the lathe versus it being driven by an external source of other design -it does not refer to doing any machining operations on the lathe.
the toolroom lathe is/was usually an engine lathe but often because the toolroom was frequently located farther away from the central lineshaft, and the machines were used less often so they didnt need the continuous power that the production line did. as the central lineshaft concept faded and machines all got their own electric powerplant, the term seems to live on.
there seems to be little or no widely-acceptedl definition of the exact necessary features for a "toolroom" lathe, although many units called 'toolroom' were the smaller and more accurate versions of their production counterparts. Many of these machines were used actually to make production runs of parts that needed precision or special functions not ordinarily found on the general purpose machines.
From the historical use - the toolroom unit usually had various rests and taper equipment, often had factory-designed accessories for special functions like post grinding, armature work, etc. Southbend lists a large variety of factory-designed accessories and tooling for its workshop precision lathes and I dont see the term 'toolroom' used in its 1937 catalog so the term may not have been in wide use then.
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Rich_Carlstedt
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Re: Toolroom vs. Engine Lathe
My experiance and understanding is that:
A "Engine" Lathe can cut threads.(gears and leadscrew)
A "Toolroom" lathe is generally a small ( 14" or less)Engine lathe. Usually precise in nature but smaller because "Tooling" is not large in most cases.
Other types of lathes are
Speed(polishing), second operation,turret,CNC,metal,wood,spinning,and T Lathes
A "Engine" Lathe can cut threads.(gears and leadscrew)
A "Toolroom" lathe is generally a small ( 14" or less)Engine lathe. Usually precise in nature but smaller because "Tooling" is not large in most cases.
Other types of lathes are
Speed(polishing), second operation,turret,CNC,metal,wood,spinning,and T Lathes
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Mike_Henry
- Posts: 373
- Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 1:05 pm
Re: Toolroom vs. Engine Lathe
FWIW, I believe that the seller on that first lathe is taking a few liberties with terminology. Clausing advertised their 5900-series as a "precision" lathe, not toolroom lathe, at least in a 1968 brochure I have.
Several members here have 5900-series lathes and most (including me) seem to like them. If you find one you like, though, do yourself a favor and check out the vari-speed system thoroughly. They tend to wear out deep inside and replacement is *very* expensive if not caught in time.
Also, the prices on the first seemed a litlle high to me and the second was out of sight. They both also looked like they were recently painted, which can be used to make a tool look better than it actually is.
Mike
Several members here have 5900-series lathes and most (including me) seem to like them. If you find one you like, though, do yourself a favor and check out the vari-speed system thoroughly. They tend to wear out deep inside and replacement is *very* expensive if not caught in time.
Also, the prices on the first seemed a litlle high to me and the second was out of sight. They both also looked like they were recently painted, which can be used to make a tool look better than it actually is.
Mike
Mike, near Chicago
Re: Toolroom vs. Engine Lathe
I agree with Mike especially on the need to fully check out a 5900 series clausing's vari-drive - BUT!!!! I will say this though - they (the drives) are commonly in poor shape - HOWEVER I wouldn't let this prevent me from getting a DEAL matter of fact I would use it as a tool to help reduce the price even further. And before you think I am crazy - though the parts ARE expensive (almost prohibitively) so if you're CHEAP like me and are UP TO A CHALLENGE - just re-MAKE them!!!! ---- I did - and I am a mere amateur - just learning.
Back to the origional post I agree that these terms are being used VERY LOOSELY - I was alwasy taught that a TRUE TOOL ROOM lathe had no feed screw (no threading) but were most accurate - however in this day and age I think the term is used as a sort of sales tool - like "driven only on Sundays by a little old lady"
Your mileage may vary
Back to the origional post I agree that these terms are being used VERY LOOSELY - I was alwasy taught that a TRUE TOOL ROOM lathe had no feed screw (no threading) but were most accurate - however in this day and age I think the term is used as a sort of sales tool - like "driven only on Sundays by a little old lady"
Your mileage may vary
Re: Toolroom vs. Engine Lathe
Second operation lathes have no leadscrew, but toolroom lahtes usually do. Take a look at a Hardinge HLV, it's got a leadscrew. Keep in mind that "tool room" relates to maintaining machinery and making parts for them. A toolroom lathe with no thread cutting capability wouldn't be of much use.
I think this first lathe is a toolroom lathe just by virtue of the acessories like the collet rack and lever type drawbar. It probably should have a taper attachment with it, too. Again, the only difference between a standard 10" South Bend quick-change precision lathe and a toolroom lathe was the addition of an optional taper attachment, collet closer and collet rack. They are otherwise identical.
I think this first lathe is a toolroom lathe just by virtue of the acessories like the collet rack and lever type drawbar. It probably should have a taper attachment with it, too. Again, the only difference between a standard 10" South Bend quick-change precision lathe and a toolroom lathe was the addition of an optional taper attachment, collet closer and collet rack. They are otherwise identical.
18x72 L&S, Fosdick 3ft radial, Van Norman 2G bridgemill, Van Norman #12, K. O. Lee T&C grinder, Steptoe-Western 12X universal HS shaper, 16spd benchtop DP, Grob band filer, South Bend 10L
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gregvasale
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Re: Toolroom vs. Engine Lathe
FWIW, I heard or read that the term "Engine lathe" was coined as the machine (lathe) that was used by Watt to build his steam engine. A huge blending of types/ differences since then, but would suspect most would perhaps consider the screw cutting lathe to be closest to what today hovers around this description? No?
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shapeaholic
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- Location: Ontario Canada
Re: Toolroom vs. Engine Lathe
I had a conversation with Scott Logan about this very topic, at NAMES last spring.
Scott told me that the difference is in the precision ( tolerances) to which the machine is made.
I had asked about this because there was a Logan lathe advertised locally as a "Toolroom Lathe"
Scott advised me that Logan never made a "Toolroom" lathe. They chose to build machines to "Engine" lathe tolerances.
Apparently the tolerances were set by the Government. ( perhaps by the military purchasing people)
IMHO it is a bit of a moot point when buying used machines, as I expect very few used machines would meet "toolroom" tolerances.
Cheers
Pete
Scott told me that the difference is in the precision ( tolerances) to which the machine is made.
I had asked about this because there was a Logan lathe advertised locally as a "Toolroom Lathe"
Scott advised me that Logan never made a "Toolroom" lathe. They chose to build machines to "Engine" lathe tolerances.
Apparently the tolerances were set by the Government. ( perhaps by the military purchasing people)
IMHO it is a bit of a moot point when buying used machines, as I expect very few used machines would meet "toolroom" tolerances.
Cheers
Pete