JET MILL Drill JMD18 question for live steam 7.5" guage

[barronzm]

Hi guys.
I am thinking about making live steam locomotives in 7.5" gauge and I am thinking about purchasing a JET JMD-18 Mill/drill in the future to help with this task. I would like to do a good amount of steel and aluminum work on it when the time comes and due to space issues and with the power it has I think this may be for me. Does anyone know what kind of realistic work can you do on the machine and what kind of materials can be milled and/or drilled and how much can be milled on it? Also if I were to get the machine, what tools in your opinion should I get to do good work on the machine for general machining or work on live steam? Any information you can give would really appreciated and will help a great deal. If this machine would not do the work, please let me know of one that is around 2000lbs and can run off of house power and would not break the bank.

Thank you
Barronzm (Mike)

[Harold_V]

I wouldn't recommend a round column mill/drill to anyone, not unless it would be used EXCLUSIVELY for drilling holes. The amount of frustration you'd experience every time you moved the head makes it a lousy idea.

Harold

[powderhorn01]

For what you are wanting to do, you will need a Bridgeport, or equivalent, and a 13x30 lathe, as a minimum.
I had one of the HF mill/drills, that I started with, building a Connor Beam engine. I now have an old Round Ram Bridgeport, and the difference is night and day between them, and the finish you get on the surface.
With the M/D you run into problems QUICK, you run out of work room under the head, if you have to lift the head during a set up, you will loose your position on your part, also if boring a cylinder longer than 3" you can't do it, you do not have enough room under the head.
With a Bridgeport, you have the ability to drop the table and give you more room under the head, also you can tilt the head for making some cuts. Also the quill has a 5" throw verse a 3.5"throw on a M/D.
One of the simplest engines to build, and cheapest is one of the Connor Beam Engines. Most of the parts are commercial off the shelf, or constructed out of bar stock, pipe, plate, and standard plumbing fittings. Main items that you need that are train related are the wheels, safety's, and whistle.
You should be able to find a Bridgeport in your area for between $800-$1500, with the 1500. one having some accessories with it. You will find out the mill is the cheap part, the tooling for it is where the money is.


If you have other questions, PM me.

[Jawn]

Take my comments for what they're worth, I've not built an engine yet and I'm still getting started with this... but I would't pay new Jet prices for any round column mill. I only bought one (not Jet) because it was $600 new (on sale for $800, 25% off coupon made it $600 plus tax/shipping).

The round column does mean you need to plan your work to be done without moving the head if possible (or re-setup after moving). There is more than 3" quill travel on mine at least, more like 5-6". That helps.

[rudd]

Hey Mike, glad you made it over to the land of non-abuse.
As I mentioned, you can run 240 three phase machines off regular 110v house power with a VFD - up to a size.
Three phase from the power company is not happening in my residential neighborhood.
I have 240 single available in my new shop, but still had the 110v VFD's from the old shop, so I use them.
I've got a full size older Brit vertical mill and a smaller old American iron horizontal, both 240 3 ph, 3/4 horse, both plugged into 110v outlets.
Lots of home shop types kind of get scared off by 3 phase, which means you can get good deals on these sorts of machines. Plus with the VFD you get speed control.

In buying machines, the most important lesson I have learned is patience. Keep looking, but have patience. The deal will happen.

[barronzm]

Hey Mike, glad you made it over to the land of non-abuse.
As I mentioned, you can run 240 three phase machines off regular 110v house power with a VFD - up to a size.
Three phase from the power company is not happening in my residential neighborhood.
I have 240 single available in my new shop, but still had the 110v VFD's from the old shop, so I use them.
I've got a full size older Brit vertical mill and a smaller old American iron horizontal, both 240 3 ph, 3/4 horse, both plugged into 110v outlets.
Lots of home shop types kind of get scared off by 3 phase, which means you can get good deals on these sorts of machines. Plus with the VFD you get speed control.

In buying machines, the most important lesson I have learned is patience. Keep looking, but have patience. The deal will happen.

Hi again ha. How can I go about using a 3 phase machine on house power? Also, like for the bridgeports, is there a minimum HP rating that a machine should have?

[Jawn]

How can I go about using a 3 phase machine on house power?

rudd summed it up below. There is a device called a "VFD" (variable frequency drive) that is basically a small electronic box, with the appropriate unit you can feed single phase in and it creates 3-phase on its output. As a benefit, it can vary the frequency of the 3-phase output, which will vary the speed of the 3-phase motor driven by it.

As I mentioned, you can run 240 three phase machines off regular 110v house power with a VFD - up to a size.
Three phase from the power company is not happening in my residential neighborhood.
I have 240 single available in my new shop, but still had the 110v VFD's from the old shop, so I use them.
I've got a full size older Brit vertical mill and a smaller old American iron horizontal, both 240 3 ph, 3/4 horse, both plugged into 110v outlets.
Lots of home shop types kind of get scared off by 3 phase, which means you can get good deals on these sorts of machines. Plus with the VFD you get speed control.

[rudd]

Mike, here is an example. There is a good bit to learn about these things, I felt a bit intimidated at first, but took the leap and am glad I did.
http://driveswarehouse.com/p-2602-wj200-007mf.aspx

I think most machines will be "motored" with what the designer felt optimum. You may not need/use the full capacity of some of these, but would have to allow for it electrically I think or risk the sptizen-sparken.
My vertical has a 3/4 horse motor and step pulleys, slowing it down with the pulleys and the VFD I can push a 3/4" end mill along pretty good in steel. Not production cuts, mind you, but enough to do what I need to do.

Since you are asking about live steam, here's the old girl trimming up the frames for my little mogul. I had the frames waterjet cut leaving a little to machine off. Depending on what engine you select, some frames can be made of built-up bar stock. My engine is heavily cribbed off an Allen design, which uses the built up frames, but I elected to go with solid.
The bar-stock frames would still require a bit of milling.

[Jaxian]

Hey Mike, glad you made it over to the land of non-abuse.

Haha, yeah, I saw that thread on PM and was like "Oh, man, there goes another well meaning person who has the misfortune of posting a question to the wrong forum, here comes the abuse". To be fair though they were only mildly offensive and derogatory .

My only little bit to chip in on this would be to remember the old machine purchase axiom. Buy the BIGGEST machine you can possible afford and fit. First it is an investment, you will not lose money on it. Second you are guaranteed that the first job you are really wanting to get done will be too big to fit anyway. It's just the law of these things.

As to the horsepower thing I will draw an automotive analogy. You can put a 1000hp motor in a Yugo but it isn't going to do you any good or go very fast. You have to be able USE the power. None of the standard Bridgeport type machines, even the Laguns, E-cello, or other "heavy" versions of the Bridgeport come with more than 3hp (5hp on a electronic vari drive to make up for the lost bottom end power). The reason for the hp threshold even on 3000lb machines is that they aren't rigid enough to use more. They will start to vibrate, oscillate, bend, deflect and just generally make using any more power impossible.

So don't worry about the power, worry about the mass (NOT size) and you will do well. A No.2 horizontal from either K&T or Cincinnati looks smaller than a Bridgeport at first glace because of how short they are. But they can weigh 4-6k pounds. That is very GOOD. Small package, huge rigidity makes for happy machining. And you get a bit bigger table, usually a min of a 12x52 which is just a bit bigger than a BP style vertical 'big table' machine. Lots of cool accessories to be found like vertical heads, rotabs and dividing heads and a large amount of community support. They will not shy away from those big projects you were talking about either. Glad to see you over here and hope things go well.

[Falcon67]

As above. Not an expert by any means, or even a decent machinist. The minimum on a mill/drill IMHO is a square column unit. I have a Griz with a 1 HP 3 phase motor, runs off a VFD from 240V single phase shop power. It's a nice tool. It's got a good work envelope. But it's limited in accuracy in all directions. For what I spent on it new, I could have added maybe another $1500 and had a nice used BP. So yes, don't buy too small. I'd like to do some performance cylinder head type work and my Griz won't do it, and won't hold the tolerances I'd need. A new TurnPro or equivalent very well could.

>You should be able to find a Bridgeport in your area for between $800-$1500, with the 1500. one having some accessories with it.
I would not bet on that, depending on the location. Last "cheap" BP I saw here in Texas was one of the "kept outside" models, missing head parts and was $1800 firm. No DRO, no tooling, no handles either. Decent machines in that class are a minimum of $2500 and more like $3500+ now. These things were never prevalent here anyway and the Klien shale, north Texas gas well boom and such have put price pressure on anything decent that turns up. I figure for budgeting $6000 easy for a new mill with a discount coupon and a minimum of $3500 for a used BP that needs a tune up but has lived a quiet life. The main difference being the new one gets delivered to my door and the used one requires a suitcase of cash, the trailer hooked up to the truck and ready to run 200~300~400 miles to pick up the machine and an eye on every online sale rag, craigslist, classifieds and machine dealers inside of 260,000 square miles.

[John Evans]

Well Mike now that your are here I would suggest going up to the Live Steam forum and ask there what size machines they are using to build engines of the size you are thinking about.
For sure do not let 3 phase machines scare you off. Easy starting stuff like mills and drill presses will happly work of static converters,lathes in larger than say 10" statics do not work well. My big lathe with 16" chuck and 7.5HP needs 15 HP rotory converter for reliable starting,lots of mass to get moving there.

[Harlock]

barronzm,

You might wish to take a look at the posting I just made about my PM-932M machine and see if it might fit your needs and your budget.

http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/vie ... 3&t=100207

I echo the others in saying definitely do not get a round column machine. Any time you have to move the head up and down, such as to change from a drill chuck to a mill bit in a collet, you will lose your positioning on the table and have to indicate all over again. You'll be tearing your hair out.

The PM-932M is single phase 220 so it can run off a dryer outlet directly with no phase converter needed. I did use a Phase-a-matic static phase converter on my larger machine which was three phase and it worked just fine. They are actually a local company and I have been in there when I had a problem and they gave me a new converter at no cost.

-M