I would like to eventually get a proper milling machine, but money is a reality, and so now comes the choice between two options;
- using my 7x14 lathe as a mill, and buying a Little Machine Shop milling attachment, and collet for cutting tools. The total cost for this set up is right about $300. My dad, being a machinist, gave me a vast deal of tools, but for the life of me he doesn't know a thing about basic economics. A bridgeport, even a broken one, is years out of the way.
- buying a Harbor Freight mini-mill/drill. I will still need the collet and such. The total cost here is $780.
I'm going to be working on small work. Picture about the size of your little finger or thumb, of 1018 and A36. I have all day for one cut, but some input on to the realities of either choice would be very welcome. (improvements, rigidity, and such) Right now I am only seeing a cost factor.
HF mill/drill vs. Mini-lathe milling attachment
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John Evans
- Posts: 2366
- Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:33 pm
- Location: Phoenix ,AZ
Re: HF mill/drill vs. Mini-lathe milling attachment
As much as I dislike mill/drills it will be light years ahead of a mini lathe with a milling attachment.
www.chaski.com
Re: HF mill/drill vs. Mini-lathe milling attachment
What John said. Equipping a small lathe to mill is a waste of money, the realization of which will come to you only after you have spent the money and determine that it won't do what you hoped it would, or that the time wasted making setups is not reasonable. Keep your eyes open for a used mill/drill, hoping for one without a round column.
About the amount of time you have to machine things. It may not seem significant now, but if you find yourself in the position where you must make more than one, or if you must remove a lot of metal to get to the part you hope to make, you'll come to realize that time means something, that how long it takes isn't of no concern. When it takes you a few hours to do what could be done in a few minutes, it won't be long until it becomes drudgery. Make decisions that won't discourage you in the long haul.
Harold
About the amount of time you have to machine things. It may not seem significant now, but if you find yourself in the position where you must make more than one, or if you must remove a lot of metal to get to the part you hope to make, you'll come to realize that time means something, that how long it takes isn't of no concern. When it takes you a few hours to do what could be done in a few minutes, it won't be long until it becomes drudgery. Make decisions that won't discourage you in the long haul.
Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
Re: HF mill/drill vs. Mini-lathe milling attachment
I've had a mini-lathe for over 25 years. It's highly modified, but it's been a useful machine - and I still use it even though I have 3 other lathes. I cannot see it working at all with a milling attachment. Even a boring bar is an iffy proposition, the carriage is just too light to be applying forces that will try to rock or twist it.
The mini-mill would work better, though it doesn't look particularly useful. My suggestion would be to save your money for a more industrial machine. Don't worry about namebrands - the word Bridgeport will up the price for no particularly good reason. Mill drills may work for you, but they also command a higher price than a lot of far better industrial machines. A smaller industrial horizontal mill might also be an option - they often go for very little money because they are harder to set up for most jobs than a vertical mill, but they tend to be far more rigid. Of course prices vary a lot depending on location - I have no idea what the used machine market is like in your vicinity.
The mini-mill would work better, though it doesn't look particularly useful. My suggestion would be to save your money for a more industrial machine. Don't worry about namebrands - the word Bridgeport will up the price for no particularly good reason. Mill drills may work for you, but they also command a higher price than a lot of far better industrial machines. A smaller industrial horizontal mill might also be an option - they often go for very little money because they are harder to set up for most jobs than a vertical mill, but they tend to be far more rigid. Of course prices vary a lot depending on location - I have no idea what the used machine market is like in your vicinity.
Re: HF mill/drill vs. Mini-lathe milling attachment
My 12" Atlas lathe has a milling vise and an end mill tool holder. The attachment to the lathe carriage is not rigid enough for anything but a small cut. The vertical travel is limited and so is the cross travel, think x and y on a mill. The vise is difficult to grip anything with and it is annoying to use parallels because of the vise orientation. In normal lathe operation, the cutting forces are all down toward the bed. When using a milling cutter, some of the forces are sideways or up depending on the cut. The lathe carriage, unless very heavy, will contribute to chatter problems.
I'd not purchase a lathe mill attachment on purpose.
As others have noted, a smallish gently used mill would be much better.
--earlgo
I'd not purchase a lathe mill attachment on purpose.
As others have noted, a smallish gently used mill would be much better.
--earlgo
Before you do anything, you must do something else first. - Washington's principle.
Re: HF mill/drill vs. Mini-lathe milling attachment
While the original post did not specify the model, Harbor Freight's website shows one mill in that price range, a 2-speed (really a variable speed) mill, 4/5 HP with an overall table size of just under 4" x 16". Besides the small table size (and likely small travel, although that spec isn't listed), the minimum speed shown is 1100 RPM, which would slightly exceed 100 fpm (steel) with a 3/8" milling bit.
Any larger tools would be cutting pretty fast on steel. I know by experience that even 3/4 HP would drive larger milling cutters, but that minimum rpm rate would limit what you could do with it a lot. I saw it had an R8 spindle, so you could invest in cutting tools and collets that you could move to another machine when you inevitably outgrow this one.
At the $1000 or so price point, there is a better selection of milling machines that are not so "mini".
Any larger tools would be cutting pretty fast on steel. I know by experience that even 3/4 HP would drive larger milling cutters, but that minimum rpm rate would limit what you could do with it a lot. I saw it had an R8 spindle, so you could invest in cutting tools and collets that you could move to another machine when you inevitably outgrow this one.
At the $1000 or so price point, there is a better selection of milling machines that are not so "mini".
Re: HF mill/drill vs. Mini-lathe milling attachment
There is no substitute for mass. Buy a proper knee mill
Re: HF mill/drill vs. Mini-lathe milling attachment
And, if you happen to make that choice, do NOT fix on a Bridgeport, for they are far from the best possible choice. That's not to say one wouldn't be acceptable, but if you had a choice between a Gorton I-22 Mastermil and a Bridgeport, for example, which one to take is a no-brainer, conditions being equal.WJH wrote:There is no substitute for mass. Buy a proper knee mill
Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
Re: HF mill/drill vs. Mini-lathe milling attachment
When I say bridgeport, I really just mean universal mill. I grew up hearing the name to much that it's like how Texans can say "coke" and mean Pepsi or 7up. Language is a weird thing.Harold_V wrote:And, if you happen to make that choice, do NOT fix on a Bridgeport, for they are far from the best possible choice. That's not to say one wouldn't be acceptable, but if you had a choice between a Gorton I-22 Mastermil and a Bridgeport, for example, which one to take is a no-brainer, conditions being equal.WJH wrote:There is no substitute for mass. Buy a proper knee mill
Harold
Thanks to everyone for the input. I think that the choice is going to be limited due to economics. It'll be a milling attachment out of necessity, but maybe I can jimmy things to work and save up with time.
Thanks everyone.
Re: HF mill/drill vs. Mini-lathe milling attachment
You said your parts are smallish so an alternative to an aggravating milling fixture would be to spend your money on a good multi-angle vise, a high intensity light, a magnifying visor and a fistful of files. One can make a lot of really nice parts with patience.
At the Colorado School of Trades (Gunsmithing), we neophytes spent the first weeks with a file and a few drawings to prove that we could do the work. We never touched a machine except a drill press, until the apprentice work was done. These parts have been sitting in my toolbox for 45 years so a little rust has accumulated.
Various parts that were made. The dovetail and square block were not passed until the joints were LIGHT TIGHT. The same with the fake barrel dovetails. The tapped holes in the round rod are various sizes and depths, the shortest being 3 threads. The straightness was checked by putting a tap in each hole and sighting down the line. When you got done, you were competent to continue on. Oh, and the polished parts were smooth enough so the instructor "could see his whiskers".
Just a thought for an alternative method for making parts.
--earlgo
At the Colorado School of Trades (Gunsmithing), we neophytes spent the first weeks with a file and a few drawings to prove that we could do the work. We never touched a machine except a drill press, until the apprentice work was done. These parts have been sitting in my toolbox for 45 years so a little rust has accumulated.
Various parts that were made. The dovetail and square block were not passed until the joints were LIGHT TIGHT. The same with the fake barrel dovetails. The tapped holes in the round rod are various sizes and depths, the shortest being 3 threads. The straightness was checked by putting a tap in each hole and sighting down the line. When you got done, you were competent to continue on. Oh, and the polished parts were smooth enough so the instructor "could see his whiskers".
Just a thought for an alternative method for making parts.
--earlgo
Before you do anything, you must do something else first. - Washington's principle.
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SteveHGraham
- Posts: 7788
- Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:55 pm
- Location: Florida
Re: HF mill/drill vs. Mini-lathe milling attachment
There is no substitute for having separate tools for separate operations. I wish I had two knee mills; one for wood, and one for metal.
And one with a drill chuck that never comes off, for use as a drill press. Okay, THREE knee mills.
Anyway, moving setups and changing tools gets old.
And one with a drill chuck that never comes off, for use as a drill press. Okay, THREE knee mills.
Anyway, moving setups and changing tools gets old.
Every hard-fried egg began life sunny-side up.
Re: HF mill/drill vs. Mini-lathe milling attachment
Very nice work Earlgo, a file, some experience, a sharp eye, and a light touch WAS the very first milling machine that helped build the very first milling machine invented. 
I'm not suggesting that a lathes milling attachment will stand in for everything even a rather poor mill can do. But there's been a huge amount of work shown in the older Model Engineering magazines both before and after the second world war. Some of that work was more than a bit complex. But before the cheap off shore machines and mills started showing up, only the very well off, extremely dedicated, or the very lucky had a mill in there home shop in the U.K. during that time period. If you really and desperately wanted to do any milling, then most were forced to use those milling attachments, and most manufactures in the U.K. at the time offered one as an accessory. However most of those weren't the cheap and lightly built ones we see today coming out of China or India. A lot of them had the very same design quality and manufacturing that the lathes had that were being built in the U.K. at that time.
There's more than a few reasons that some of us just can't have even a Bridgeport sized machine. If all you can afford or can handle for room and weight is a "good" milling attachment, then you do have my sympathy and I don't envy you at all. But even a milling attachment is far better than not having any milling capabilities at all. But if it were me I think I might do a lot of searching and maybe try and get one of the ones that were designed and built by Myfords for use on there Super 7 lathes. Maybe a bit tough to find in North America if that's where your located. But there easy enough to find in the U.K. and import them.
If that was the route I was forced to take, I'd certainly try to build or add in as much rigidity as I could to both the cross slide and the milling attachment itself. Mounting the attachment to a heavy ground angle plate would help a great deal, then mount that to the cross slide.
Even though I own a couple of mills, I still have a Palmgren milling attachment and have zero intensions of ever selling it. I've said more than once that there is some work that can be done easier by using the lathe as a horizontal mill or borer than doing it on a vertical mill. That of course is job specific and you may never have the need to do so. There's at least one small book dedicated to lathe milling that's in the Workshop practice series. "Milling in the Lathe". And that book shows a lot of what can be done and just how versatile it can be. I didn't say fast.
But even the cheap Seig X2 sized mills really do need a fair amount of work done to them to help make the column much more rigid. There's dozens if not more build threads about doing so on various forums where the posters think the same.
Pete
I'm not suggesting that a lathes milling attachment will stand in for everything even a rather poor mill can do. But there's been a huge amount of work shown in the older Model Engineering magazines both before and after the second world war. Some of that work was more than a bit complex. But before the cheap off shore machines and mills started showing up, only the very well off, extremely dedicated, or the very lucky had a mill in there home shop in the U.K. during that time period. If you really and desperately wanted to do any milling, then most were forced to use those milling attachments, and most manufactures in the U.K. at the time offered one as an accessory. However most of those weren't the cheap and lightly built ones we see today coming out of China or India. A lot of them had the very same design quality and manufacturing that the lathes had that were being built in the U.K. at that time.
There's more than a few reasons that some of us just can't have even a Bridgeport sized machine. If all you can afford or can handle for room and weight is a "good" milling attachment, then you do have my sympathy and I don't envy you at all. But even a milling attachment is far better than not having any milling capabilities at all. But if it were me I think I might do a lot of searching and maybe try and get one of the ones that were designed and built by Myfords for use on there Super 7 lathes. Maybe a bit tough to find in North America if that's where your located. But there easy enough to find in the U.K. and import them.
If that was the route I was forced to take, I'd certainly try to build or add in as much rigidity as I could to both the cross slide and the milling attachment itself. Mounting the attachment to a heavy ground angle plate would help a great deal, then mount that to the cross slide.
Even though I own a couple of mills, I still have a Palmgren milling attachment and have zero intensions of ever selling it. I've said more than once that there is some work that can be done easier by using the lathe as a horizontal mill or borer than doing it on a vertical mill. That of course is job specific and you may never have the need to do so. There's at least one small book dedicated to lathe milling that's in the Workshop practice series. "Milling in the Lathe". And that book shows a lot of what can be done and just how versatile it can be. I didn't say fast.
But even the cheap Seig X2 sized mills really do need a fair amount of work done to them to help make the column much more rigid. There's dozens if not more build threads about doing so on various forums where the posters think the same.
Pete