Horizontal milling operations -Burke #4

Discussion on all milling machines vertical & horizontal, including but not limited to Bridgeports, Hardinge, South Bend, Clausing, Van Norman, including imports.

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spro
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Re: Horizontal milling operations -Burke #4

Post by spro »

The vertical head set-up, is a little different than others. Within the section that clamps to the OA is an eccentric sleeve. Since the slotted drive arbor is about 6" long, the head can be clamped anywhere along that travel. The arbor center support is there but the eccentric sleeve, slightly positions the center of the head's driven sleeve and location sleeve to the center of the slotted drive arbor. This only makes sense when you are looking at it. The head is locked yet one bolt (7/8") head, loosens it to pivot. It pivots around the heavy location sleeve which ... gotta get a drawing. :shock: You will see and also why there will be heavy scribed marks to match the eccentric bushing to the casting. When you swing the head away, the bushing may slip and not align again -at first.
The Eccentric bushing is split,has a flange and a flat on one side.
Jaxian
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Re: Horizontal milling operations -Burke #4

Post by Jaxian »

Not familiar with the Burke #4 but I do have a horizontal mill. Not sure I understand exactly what the issue is. Since you can run the spindle either direction, feed the table either direction and turn a standard milling cutter or slab mill to face either direction there really is no "right" direction. (granted you want a slab mill pulling the work toward the column because of the large cutting forces).

About a quarter of my arbors are B&S brand and have LH threads on the nut, drawbar is still standard RH, when I use those arbors I just run the table feed the other direction and reverse the rotation and start on the other side of the work.

Only time I notice rotation is using end mills, face mills, or drills. In those cases I just make sure the machine is rotating the proper direction and feed from the correct side. Granted on my machine it really doesn't care if you climb mill within reason so as long as the cutters are rotating the right way. I can start the end or face mills into the work from either side.

Given all this and my lack of knowledge on the Burke #4 I am assuming there is something I am missing that is the problem. Do you mean that the table feed is somehow related to the spindle rotation so you like have to feed one way while the spindle is rotating one direction? Then that could be annoying. That wouldn't be an electrical issue though so I am still a bit confused.

As an aside B&S mills ran 'opposite' of standard, hence the LH arbor nuts and them putting the dividing heads on the left instead of the right like the more common horizontals.
spro
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Re: Horizontal milling operations -Burke #4

Post by spro »

I didn't quite get that either, as the B&S is fairly self locking taper. A RH thread drawbar would cinch up the arbor and if the nut thread to cinch the mill wheel is LH, the arbor runs CW. As I mentioned, the arbor to drive the #3 collets of the vertical head wasn't even threaded. It was slammed into clean taper and held tight by the dead center of the OA.
All the Burke #4 originally had FWD/REV to that gearmotor and auto table feed, just fed the opposite direction.
Glenn Brooks
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Re: Horizontal milling operations -Burke #4

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Thanks all,

I've learned a lot about basic horizontal milling technique from this thread - which was my reason for asking the question initially about direction of feed. It is surprising how little fundamental machining ops information for the Burke is available anywhere. Anyway, I've still got some workholding issues to resolve - need to make some clamps to hold down raw stock on my one slot table. And keep the little 3" vise I have secured in one spot. So don't have really any practical experience using shell cutters yet. Hence my reason for asking the question.

Today maybe I will make a couple of machinist clamps and a set of flat clamps and stops then experiment with making chips!

Glenn
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

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earlgo
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Re: Horizontal milling operations -Burke #4

Post by earlgo »

Everything you didn't know you didn't know, as the saying goes.
https://www.amazon.com/treatise-milling ... g+machines

My dad had one of these and it slipped away somehow.
--earlgo
Before you do anything, you must do something else first. - Washington's principle.
Glenn Brooks
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Re: Horizontal milling operations -Burke #4

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Thanks Earlgo. The book looks like it will be very informative. Set up and milled a couple of pieces of scrap yesterday - just took a bunch of cuts really, with the goal of squaring up the stock. Spent a lot of time figuring out how to best clamp the work, and tweaking some strap clamps and a small 3" vise I bought previously for the mill. The little Burke removes a surprising amount of material with a 1" slab cutter.

I almost might need to bolt it to the floor. it digs so deep into the work the little machine tips up off its ends, but keeeps on chugging. Amazing.

Working on figuring out how to square the third side of stock. Ended up with a parrellelgram using the vise, instead of a square bit of 3x4" x2" bar. Cut two Opposite sides parrallel, but the ends are cut at 85* or so. Iam thinking the work needs to clamped onto an angle plate for another pass, and made vertical with a cylinder square, perhaps... very interesting learning curve this horizontal milling stuff.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
earlgo
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Re: Horizontal milling operations -Burke #4

Post by earlgo »

Mr. Brooks. Please look in your class issued books for "Machine Tool Operation, Part II, Drilling Planing, Milling, Grinding" by Henry D. Burghardt. McGraw-Hill Book Company, Inc copyright 1922 and 1937. Surely you haven't lost it already... :P
In case you have misplaced it here are the pertinent pages under 'Shaper Work'.
MTO squaring block #1.pdf
(250.67 KiB) Downloaded 317 times
MTO squaring block #2.pdf
(411.9 KiB) Downloaded 283 times
MTO squaring block #3.pdf
(446.14 KiB) Downloaded 266 times
Have fun.
--earlgo
Before you do anything, you must do something else first. - Washington's principle.
Glenn Brooks
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Re: Horizontal milling operations -Burke #4

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Earlgo! Sorry teacher, I accidentally left my books on the bus this morning.

Never considered my vise jaws might be out of tram. My primary vise is a newish Kurt, and always dead on. AHA! I used an old -new to me, little 3" machinist vise on the Burke- because it's small and fits the table. First time using it. Never thought to check if it's square. And so the fog lifts after many days...

The scanned pages you sent are great. I was already thinking about somehow shimming the out of square edges...plus I have always squared opposite edges then tops and bottom- never thought to put a small round against the moveable jaw to hold the adjacent edge square. That method makes a lot of sense. Why don't they teach these things nowadays??

Anyway, thanks. Good stuff. Iam off to inspect my vise, and try a shim or two...and some round stock.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
earlgo
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Re: Horizontal milling operations -Burke #4

Post by earlgo »

Well, gee whiz, if you hadn't lost your textbook it was right there all the time.
I picked that book up at a library sale and that chapter alone was worth the price. Glad it helped.

--earlgo
Before you do anything, you must do something else first. - Washington's principle.
spro
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Re: Horizontal milling operations -Burke #4

Post by spro »

Well, Happy New Years to you all ! I remember when I bought my Burke 4 from a guy. We had a conversation about milling machines and he was much older than me. He had larger machines to the first Gorton I ever saw and every type lathe. It was probably part sale's pitch and more truth about the Burke 4. It was a very tight package of large capacity. I mentioned the Atlas mill and he dismissed it. He was talking Power. With B&S #9 taper and gearmotor , the Burke could plow through metal. Short table, yes but power to the milling wheels which could be large diameter. I will admit that I never fully utilized the capacity. I used a static converter and never saw what it was capable of or built for. These were machines for industry and 3~. A whole different thing.
ronbicard
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Re: Horizontal milling operations -Burke #4

Post by ronbicard »

Thanks to you guys for posting this thread and responding to it.
Complete newbie here to machining here but I purchased a 9" South Bend and a Burke #4 (also has a vertical head milling attachment, vice and indexing head). I purchased the manual (or what there really is of a manual) from eBay and have gone through that but it did not mention some of the stuff you guys did (like the B&S #9 taper, etc).

So thank you for posting this info out there that others like myself can take advantage of it even months and/or years down the road.
spro
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Re: Horizontal milling operations -Burke #4

Post by spro »

The table is tiny but there is power drive to it. The "u joints" wear and usually just a larger pin. I rebuilt the main head of mine. Huge bearings-relatively speaking and it was made for heavy work in a small footprint. Mine didn't come with the heavy cast iron base, which was a work in itself. Very cool base. Anyway this is history. There are so many vertical mills available now, spinning an end mill at great speed, it is different. You can't make them drive a 4"-5" milling wheel, or slot or the combination angled wheels which do Vee and cove and ogee. These milling wheels used to be cheap.
Master Gear Head motors weighed a lot, dang near what the mill weighed. It all fit together for stability. Never forget our engineers then.
It is laughable to say that now. ...do you know what had happened which we could not mention? Sleepless nights and unknown best resigning. We were totally hosed and knew it.
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