Fun making chips with my horizontal Burke #4

Discussion on all milling machines vertical & horizontal, including but not limited to Bridgeports, Hardinge, South Bend, Clausing, Van Norman, including imports.

Moderators: GlennW, Harold_V

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Fun making chips with my horizontal Burke #4

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Rebuilt my Burke #4 a couple of years ago, but never had a good use for it until this week. Was thinking of selling it. But after abandoning an attempt to cut 1/4” slots for clamping down a small vise, with my Bridgeport clone, Iam ecstatic!

Discovered the Burke is a fantastic machine for this sort of job. Solid, deep, straight, sharp edged cuts with a 3” x 1/4” horizontal cutter. No tool deflection. No offset work holding. No more sloppy, wobbly, skinny cuts with noodle like 3/16” or 1/4” end mills. Just solid, deep, chip making with my little Burke#4.

First pic shows the basic setup. I clamped down a small 3” Machinist vise on its side to cut 1/4” work holding slots.
F84ECA8E-022C-4DD1-B56B-329CE0307EF9.jpeg
Here’s the little 3” cutter doing its work. Quite enjoyable to watch.
50AD7752-FB65-4591-A751-53EBD9A9B506.jpeg
Nice little pile of chips.
F375D795-68A0-47C6-89E4-C19D9B1364FB.jpeg
15A3249C-12DF-473A-B1F0-A0D48F992FFD.jpeg
Good, clean, sharp sided cuts. No deburing!
00B15178-E82B-441E-9ADF-A47FE994F5E7.jpeg
18C0C84B-7914-4B26-AF44-4FFB061395A7.jpeg
And finally, the vise clamped in place on a Shop made tapping jig .
1657FD2E-39F4-4271-A074-6F358410EFB2.jpeg
C64228A8-75B7-41C1-B8EA-63DC1A1ED43C.jpeg
3BE35849-4BA6-4991-8902-DE03A74522F3.jpeg

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
earlgo
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:38 am
Location: NE Ohio

Re: Fun making chips with my horizontal Burke #4

Post by earlgo »

Fun isn't it? I use the Producto-Matic for other stuff, too,.
Like squaring blocks.
Block squaring
Block squaring
Or cutting wide slots.
Wide slot
Wide slot
--earlgo
Before you do anything, you must do something else first. - Washington's principle.
User avatar
Harold_V
Posts: 20231
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: Fun making chips with my horizontal Burke #4

Post by Harold_V »

Hmmm. Glenn, the cutter appears to be a blur while in operation. Makes me wonder if, maybe, it was running too fast?

Side cutters, being multiple toothed cutters, are generally operated quite slowly, a reflection of their relatively large diameter and how it relates to surface speed. Slower spindle speeds (although in keeping with acceptable surface speeds for the material being machined) and high feed rates (chip load per tooth) are to be considered a guide for proper operation. I make mention because the chips that have been generated are extremely fine, so that, coupled with the blurred cutter, gives me reason to ask. Assuming I am correct, the useable life of the cutter will be greatly compromised.

I was assigned to a few K&T horizontals early in my apprenticeship. The rate of metal removal when operated within acceptable parameters is almost horrifying.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Fun making chips with my horizontal Burke #4

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Harold, interesting. Yes. Very fine chips, almost swarf. This vise is an casting. Wondered about that. I have no real experience with the Burke and haven’t been able to find any technical operating comments on line from the old days I will check my speed settings, and report back.

thought I set it to the low end of the speed range- maybe Iam on the high side.

Not hard to change. simple belt drive with a 4 step pulley set up for speed control...

Thanks
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
User avatar
Harold_V
Posts: 20231
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: Fun making chips with my horizontal Burke #4

Post by Harold_V »

You're fortunate if speed was too high, as it's dead easy to burn a cutter in steel. Cast iron is a little more forgiving, especially if it isn't chilled.

As a reference, you'd be pretty much at top speed @ 190 rpm, and you'd likely enjoy a little better tool life a little slower, especially if you had been cutting through cast iron skin, which is known to contain traces of sand. I suspect the quality of the iron is quite good for the vise.

The real negative aspect of horizontal mills is the need for expensive cutters, and also the difficulty in keeping them sharp. If those issues can be addressed, they're a very nice addition to any shop. I can't tell you the number of times I yearned for a nice #2 or 3 Universal K&T.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Fun making chips with my horizontal Burke #4

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Harold,

Checked my mill speeds this afternoon. It’s running at 200 RPM on the lowest setting - 3 step pulley arrangement off the motor. Correction: slowest actual speed setting is the factory specified 174rpm.

EDIT: Just rechecked with my new laser sensor RPM testor and the lowest actual speed was 174 - spot on with the factory specs...

Iam not sure if the step pulley’s are original or not. (Confirmed they are) I bought the mill from an estate sale, as a basket case. Nobody knew anything about it. I suppose it’s possible these drive pulley’s are after market- somebody’s bad guess.

There is no visible switch or lever on the motor to kick it in lower gear.

And it’s factory wired at 110v. So no chance to run a VFD.

Not sure how to lower speeds and feeds without a different set of pulley’s...

I did ask over on the BurkeMills@groups.io forum. But haven’t heard back,yet.

Yes, this is a great little machine. Cutting keyways and slots is a snap.



Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
User avatar
Harold_V
Posts: 20231
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: Fun making chips with my horizontal Burke #4

Post by Harold_V »

Yeah, that speed selection isn't in your best interest. You'd fail miserably with a larger cutter, especially in steel. You'd get by fine if you restricted your material choices to aluminum and brass, though.

You might entertain the idea of adding a countershaft, which would allow you a very nice range of speeds. It would be worth the trouble, in my opinion.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
earlgo
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:38 am
Location: NE Ohio

Re: Fun making chips with my horizontal Burke #4

Post by earlgo »

And speaking of keeping the cutters sharp, the wide cutter in the pic cost $60 to sharpen. Dulled it beyond use on a chunk of cast iron piano sound board. The Producto-Matic has speeds from 121 to 1420 with the step pulleys but I have another set that takes it down to about 60rpm.
--earlgo
Before you do anything, you must do something else first. - Washington's principle.
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Fun making chips with my horizontal Burke #4

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Earlgo, I can just hear your mill whomping across that work piece! I see why people still really like these horizontals..

any chance you can post a pic of your drive arrangement? Particularly how the motor is mounted? Is it tensioned by gravity or with a tensioning rod somehow?

Over on the Burke Forum, couple of guys recommend replacing the original OEM motor with a DC treadmill motor and controller. But so far, no suggestions how to mount it. My existing motor weighs as much as the Burke. Holds the belt tight through gravity, just swinging off a 2” shaft on the backside.

Thanks,
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
SteveM
Posts: 7763
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:18 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Fun making chips with my horizontal Burke #4

Post by SteveM »

My little Pratt & Whitney horizontal mill was able to carve out the slots in this toolpost pretty easily.
20200603_163022.jpg
Can't hog out a lot at a time, but it did the job well.

I have a larger horizontal that will be able to do stuff like this in one or two passes, but I have to move it downstairs.

Nice thing is that I can attach a Bridgeport head to the overarm.

Steve
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Fun making chips with my horizontal Burke #4

Post by Glenn Brooks »

FYI, found the magic answer to the high cutting speeds ( standard 174 RPM low end speeds) on the Burke #4 mill.

They use small diameter cutters.

A 1951 sales document from Burke, recommends 2 1/2 inch diameter cutters. The only 4 inch cutters they recommend are high speed steel slitting saws, probably 1/16 thickness.

So now all I have to do is go find some unobtainium 2 1/2 inch shell cutters somewhere.

Edit: checked around and there are a fair collection of small diameter cutters on several tool vendor sites. For any Burke owners out there, this evening a ran a few more tests with a 2.5” dia cutter I found in my stash of tooling and it did a fine job cutting .200” deep cut on 1/2” mild steel flat bar, with the low speed factory settings, and a surprisingly high feed rate...

Also, Note to Harold: I rechecked my speeds on the mill with a new laser sensor, RPM meter. Iam actually running 174 RPM in the lowest gear, not the 200+ I measured and recorded a couple of years ago. I’ll go back and correct my previous posts...)

Very happy with the results, now.
BFEE6FB3-9EE1-49CA-8FE4-CF1B3DFC7067.jpeg
E1EDC6CD-EE6A-403D-8FC7-BE31E15A3CB2.jpeg

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
earlgo
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:38 am
Location: NE Ohio

Re: Fun making chips with my horizontal Burke #4

Post by earlgo »

Glenn: I'll take pics and post them soon.
--earlgo
Before you do anything, you must do something else first. - Washington's principle.
Post Reply