opinion; old German milling machine

Discussion on all milling machines vertical & horizontal, including but not limited to Bridgeports, Hardinge, South Bend, Clausing, Van Norman, including imports.

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pete
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Re: opinion; old German milling machine

Post by pete »

I'm sure different manufacturer's listed there machine weights in different ways. It's possible some were or might have been listed at there crated shipping weight when leaving the factory that may well have included numerous accessories, heads, horizontal arbors and tables these types of mills are well known for. I've paid a lot of attention to threads over the years about the Euro type mills and can't recall a mention of that's how the weights were usually stamped into there I.D. placards, but I also wasn't specifically looking for that information either. Like anything else, well known manufacturers who had high production numbers would be easy to find parts and accessories for. But as I said Deckel and Schaublin mills always have high prices for any accessories that a used mill might not come with. The lesser known and smaller the manufacturer was the more complete I'd try to have the mill for anything that interested me just due to how tough anything might be to find later.

Hold down sets and mill vises are exceptions to that though. Any of that was built to fit a number of mills and I'm sure Europe is no different than over here and tee slot sizes would be to accepted standards of only a few different sizes for industrial machines like this. So tooling like that would be fairly easy to find and replace even if it's not OEM equipment. In some cases a much newer style of vise would be better anyway. A lot of the 1940's to 1960's or even sometimes into the 1970's vises were a pretty poor design compared to what was produced later with built in anti lift designs for the moving jaw. MT 4 tooling for the vertical heads is vastly easier to find as new or used in Europe than here, although it's still not impossible to find. The almost standard 40 taper tooling for these mills horizontal spindles is used almost universally word wide. For anything that might come with an older dro, you have to be a bit careful, Hedenhain would be very common in Europe, but some of there earlier dro's used a different signal system than what the newer one's today use and if there's any issues with the glass scales the dro's are basically scrap. Yes even an older dro is a selling point, but the realities are the older one's will usually add just about nothing of value to the asking price.

4,000 Euros for one of these mills is getting up there for average prices. But it very much depends on it's condition what it has for accessories and tooling. A single secondary and good condition Deckel table will now probably average over 2,000 Euros. A Wohlhaupter boring and facing head almost always 1,000 or a bit more. Some of the less common Deckel and Schaublin accessory's and heads can go for even more.
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liveaboard
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Re: opinion; old German milling machine

Post by liveaboard »

Today I spent a lot of time on a German home machinist forum, using auto translate.
They have a dozen of the Ruhla machines and one long thread only compares serial numbers and dates; they don't even mention the different weight numbers on the data plates in their pictures.
The machines are essentially the same.
But I also found out they use some weird arbor cone; so unless it comes with a pile of tooling, I'll give it a miss.

I'm on ebay again, looking in UK, Germany, Holland, maybe I should try France and Spain.
Some UK machines have metric dials.

Some are really pretty.
pete
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Re: opinion; old German milling machine

Post by pete »

This is only one web site of many giving spindle taper standards.http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/specs/Tapers.html Since your in Europe, then a Google search from there would turn up better and more specific European web sites giving the angles and measurements. The Germans have a set of standards for almost anything industrial you can think of. Afaik that's usually referred to as a DIN standard. It would be unusual for Ruhla to use something out of the ordinary for there spindle tapers though. Not impossible of course, over here a hell of a lot of older machines were built with Brown & Sharpe tapers that today very few make a limited amount of new tooling for. The B & S is almost but not quite very close to Morse Tapers but B & S used a linear size progression where the Morse Taper doesn't. Try doing a Google search using DIN Spindle Taper Standards and you might find Ruhla did use something common. There's more than one machine tool taper that has two different names but the only real difference is the draw bar threads are either imperial of metric. That's pretty common with 30,40 and 50 taper sizes today. If you can get the proper name or number specification for the taper used in those Ruhla mills from that German HSM web site I might be able to find it for you.
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liveaboard
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Re: opinion; old German milling machine

Post by liveaboard »

The Ruhla with tools + accessories + vice sold for 1,500.
I'm not planning to bid on the other one with nothing . Pictures are poor. He wrote back to me confirming no attachments at all.
On the other hand, there are still no bids.
The ad does say it will hold mk4 tools. Hmmm.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/184491927561

I'm looking at these 3 now; I have a decent transport link lined up for them, they're all around the depot of a trucker that comes to Portugal.
All 3 are middle sized, easy to move more or less single pallet under a ton.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Viceroy-AEW- ... SwR09fitWp
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/milling-mach ... _Auction=1
Horizontal viceroy comes with vertical head attachment and many tools; no vice though.
It's a bit ugly! Metric screws and dials though.
I plan to make a bid on it, not too much.

The Archdale looks great, but it's an imperial machine without cutters. He has some to sell separately.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Archdale-Uni ... SwmDtfjGmE

Then there's this one, another viceroy but vertical;
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/milling-mach ... _Auction=1
lots of tools with it and a vice.

Of course I can buy a vice separately, but they're not cheap, and most are too heavy to post. Then the cost of transport is nearly the same as for a whole milling machine.
.
pete
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Re: opinion; old German milling machine

Post by pete »

I'm the opposite and passed on a beautiful condition Deford lathe in the UK when I was looking for a new lathe simply because it was metric. It's now likely most in Europe would prefer a metric machine though, so anything imperial likely sells for quite a bit less. A mill is different than a lathe (threading) so that lower price would allow for adding a cheaper dro. With one then it doesn't matter a bit what the hand wheel scales and feed screw pitches are on a mill. And even the least expensive 2 axis glass scale dro's will allow simple bolt circle pitches to be done far faster and much easier than trig and reading the hand wheel scales can without compensating for back lash each time.

That Autolock chuck shown in the 5th picture in your first link uses what are now much less common and usually far more expensive threaded end mills. In there day a desirable set up since the end mills can't move within the chuck either in or out due to machining forces. Today and in my opinion having one just isn't that important and I doubt you'd even use it. They also seriously limit you to what the few manufacturers are now producing for those threaded end mills. Properly tightened, either using collets that do fit the spindle taper, a ER collet chuck (ER 32 - 40 size for a mill of that size) or actual Weldon type end mill holders are just as secure. While I'd not want to be without one for it's speed and convenience, there's not much that can't be secured to the table with a decent hold down set and maybe some shop made fixtures until a vise can be picked up. Depending on what you want the machine for and from previous pictures you've shown here in the past, a decent boring or boring and facing head would be a large selling point for any mill that came with one as part of the tooling. For myself I'd consider a boring head almost as important as a milling vise. A rotary table and/or dividing head would also be a big selling point to me as well. Having a large amount of cutting tools included is maybe of not much value since it would be safe to assume most are already dull. And a box full just thrown in together almost guarantees that.

I'd also closely watch any pictures showing a mills table condition. Apprentice marks like partially drilled holes or milling cutter marks in the table are to me a fairly good indication of how the machine was treated and maintained in the past. One or two might be acceptable, but anything more than that are clear warning signs. And tooling with large amounts of rust or dings on the tapers are just about worthless as far as adding any value to what's being sold.
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liveaboard
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Re: opinion; old German milling machine

Post by liveaboard »

I just missed the viceroy horizontal with vertical attachment and tools.
My connection died just as I hit the bid button, and it sold for peanuts!

Oh well.

Yes, I do close in on those pictures and look for damage marks as you said .
A DRO, even a cheapo one, will be a big percentage of my budget. I haven't yet figured out if UK buyers like metric better than imperial, but since that machine went for 510 GBP, I don't think so.

The trick with this buying at auction thing is to be patient; another will come along, if it gets bid too high, another will follow.
One thing about buying from the UK for me though; on December 31, the border snaps shut. If I have to pay import duty and sales tax, it will add 50% or more.

Now bidding on the next Viceroy, a vertical with boring head, vice, + more.

Given that I'm not going to buy a premium vise that sells for $500-$1,000, what about making a vice myself?
It could be a fun project.
It seems sort of obvious, am I missing something?
pete
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Re: opinion; old German milling machine

Post by pete »

510 GBP is probably dirt cheap for a machine like that if it's in good usable condition. For obvious reasons it's extremely difficult to request internal pictures of the machines spindle tapers, but it would be a question I'd be asking any seller about. And any rust is not a good thing. It would be very tough to almost impossible to have tooling spin in the 30,40,50 taper machines with there standard drive dogs. Morse Tapers used on some of the vertical heads aren't so hard to have that happen and it's not something that can be easily reground in an average home shop. I can't speak for your country. Here in Canada there's no actual duty on machine tools or there accessories new or used. We do have to pay the standard percentage of sales tax. About all I can suggest is to double check your country's customs web site that pertains to machine tools and accessories. I've had a few times where the Canadian Customs staff tried to charge me duty plus that sales tax. Without me already knowing they were duty exempt I would have had to pay it. One in particular did not like or appreciate me arguing the facts nor asking for there supervisor since I refused to pay that duty.

Mills obviously aren't surface grinders, yes you could machine your own vise. But accuracy wise a surface grinder will generally produce parts with roughly 10 X the accuracy of milled parts. Part of the costs of a good milling vise is due to hardening and grinding as well as the engineering design and materials that are used to build it. A good well designed and built vise will be highly accurate with very little flex that allows the parts to move within the vise due to jaw or vise bed deflection. The first pair of 4" Chinese vises I bought for my mill were surprisingly accurate when checked even with a 10ths indicator on a surface plate. That changed completely once the vises were tightened. The casting material was so porous and so full of defects covered up with whatever Chinese bondo material they used under the paint the rear fixed jaws and even the vise bed had a high amount of that flex even at fairly low tightening pressures. Any inaccuracy in your work holding is directly reflected in every part machined with the vise or work holding fixture your holding it with. No it's not impossible to build your own that would be at least equal to a commercial vise. Very difficult and I doubt in the end you'd save anything if you expected the same durability and accuracy. Heat treatable tool steels in the sizes you'd need, it's heat treatment and surface grinding are all expensive. A good vise should also have either ACME or a buttress screw and nut as well as friction reducing thrust bearings, hardened thrust washers and some type of anti lift design such as what the Kurt design uses on the moving jaw.
John Hasler
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Re: opinion; old German milling machine

Post by John Hasler »

pete writes:
>Here in Canada there's no actual duty on machine tools or there accessories new or used.

I think that's only for stuff coming from the US, because of NAFTA.
pete
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Re: opinion; old German milling machine

Post by pete »

Not as far as I know John, I've ordered tooling from the UK and Europe without any duty owing.
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liveaboard
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Re: opinion; old German milling machine

Post by liveaboard »

When I order anything from outside the EU, it gets stuck in customs and will not be released until I supply paperwork that may or may not exist, then pay the import + value added tax.
The value added tax is 23% of the purchase price + import tax + shipping cost.

Second hand items bought from shops pay VAT too, but not second hand goods bought from an individual.
Any items from other EU countries are deemed to have paid tax there, and are not retaxed here.

Although technically the UK has already left the EU, the transition period has allowed free trade until dec 31, 2020.

I buy a lot of stuff from the UK.
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Re: opinion; old German milling machine

Post by spro »

Powering a vertical head through the horizontal drive is one thing. Being able to advance the Z axis by means of a quill, is better. So any mill you get, should have quill with advance at least 2.5 "
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liveaboard
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Re: opinion; old German milling machine

Post by liveaboard »

Your advice is timely; in 15 minutes I should make a bid on a machine that has no quill movement.
It has a lot of tools with it though.
My budget makes my choices very limited.
The vertical model;
http://www.lathes.co.uk/aew/
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