opinion; old German milling machine

[liveaboard]

Thanks guys;
I'm still waiting for more pictures, but further perusing on ebay.de reveals more big milling machines without any bids, except one that's up to 350 euros. Scrap price.
I even found another machine of the same model, but the pictures don't show the extra attachments so I'm still hot on the first one.
German ones will be metric [which suits me].
I was looking on ebay.co.uk for things; in the UK, most items are imperial but some are metric.
Very few ads for machines or measurement tools state which they are. You have to look at the pictures.
How odd.
5 days left on the auction!

[pete]

East Germany or not Liveaboard it's certainly old enough for that to mean Russian, and the few Russian machines I've seen in person that always meant stoutly built. Over here I think that machine design would be classed as a Euro or Deckel type design, but they were made by probably at least a few dozen different manufacturers all over Europe. Even the Chinese made at least one version of the Deckel design many years ago. But I only know of one on YT so they don't seem to be that common.My personal opinion is you have to understand a fair amount about what makes a rigid machine before you can really appreciate what makes that Euro type far more superior than something like a Bridgeport. There "can" sometimes be trade offs depending on exactly how the machine is equipped. any accessories such as head type, the head speeds, table types etc. Hard to tell from just those few pictures and never having operated one. Generally the Y axis moves are done using what would be called the ram on a BP. The Euro mills were designed from the start to use that so it's wide, heavy enough and solid to do so.

I can't be sure but that one doesn't appear to have a proper spindle on it. Z axis moves and drilling without a spindle would need to be done with it's knee Z axis. A pita for drilling or boring by some accounts, but still very doable. I've no idea about that manufacturer, but a wide variety of heads and tables were offered by Deckel and others to equip the machine for the work is was bought to do. Proper Y axis feed screws, rotary and geared to the X axis feed screw capable dividing heads for spiral milling, high speed spindles, actual spindles equipped to do drilling, slotting heads etc. Most but not all of these mill types had built in table and knee feeds. The Euro design is vastly more rigid than the hung out in space BP type. There was at least one model of Deckel that was judged as a rather poor design because it used a precision bored recess in the casting as one of the bearing races. When worn it was therefore tough and expensive to repair. I've of course no idea if that one would have the same issues. The main items I'd want to know about is pretty much the same for any mill. Any gear issues, table feed problems, internal spindle taper condition, way surface wear, spindle bearing condition etc.

With those additional arbour's it's safe to assume that gray non factory supplied end cap is covering the usual horizontal spindle, again another desirable addition. Hard to tell for sure since there's nothing for a size perspective. So that machine could be a 30 or 40 taper machine. Possibly? 40 taper on the horizontal spindle and 30 taper for the vertical head. Again far better than the tiny BP R8 taper. And that taper will be commonly available just about everywhere in Europe. The price right now makes it a steal "if" there's no real internal issues. That second table seems to indicate having a Y axis screw. With that it's almost but not quite a true universal mill since it doesn't appear that the main table can pivot in the horizontal plane. Any used machine like this I've come to the general conclusion that at least some repairs will be needed and the machine may need almost a full dismantling for inspection, cleaning, oil changes, adjustments and old lube oil/chip evacuation. How few hammer mechanics that machine has met in the past will dictate how extensive the repairs might be. Without knowing a whole lot more about the machines general condition, then on the surface it would very much interest me. It's very likely a great many Deckel and other manufacturers accessories would either bolt right to that machine if it was directly copied from a real Deckel or could be easily adapted. Real original Deckel heads and accessories are however very expensive. Some quality time going through the details here http://www.lathes.co.uk/deckel/index.html will give you a great deal of information about what that mill is capable of. The Deckel or Euro type mills were built as high end and proper tool room mills. I very much wish I had one. If you happen to get it this is where I'd be posting any questions about it. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/d ... ene-mills/ Someone there will know at least a bit about that mill and it's manufacturer.

[liveaboard]

Pete, thanks for all that writing!
It's very educational for me.

I've been following some other auctions on ebay.de, and all the bidding took place in the last few hours. There are buyers, and it could be that some of them went and checked the machine for themselves, which is impossible for me.
So I'm trying not to get too fixated on this machine, as I usually do, driving people around me nuts with the nuts + bolts that spin around in my head.

2 other shippers got back to me, both said they will only move it if it's on a pallet [which it isn't].

No further word from the seller, who doesn't seem to have a clue about it. I asked for exterior pictures of the building and road so I can work out the difficulty of loading. Despite the quote I have, if they get there and can't get at the thing I'll be the one left holding the ball.

Apparently the company that made this machine started making machine tools in 1914, and began production of the duplex 58 in the late 30's.
After ww2, they kept building it and the quality was kept up so it could earn precious west money through export.
The company engineers got to the west before the wall went up and opened another factory there, and parts were interchangeable for a while.

Operator manual only in German. I have German friends, one German neighbor is a retired machinist. But a translation of a technical manual will be too much to ask.
People who know these terms in one language rarely know them in another.

3 days, 20 hours remaining. tick tick tick...

[pete]

There's apparently a few programs today that will allow full page scans to be translated. Exactly how well they work??? Google translate works better translating some languages using technical terms better than others, Italian to English seems to work better than most that I've found so far. German to English at least for technical terms in full sentences not so well in my experience. It might work better with single words, but you'd likely still have a range of meanings much like a dictionary. But most times it can work well enough to sort out what's meant since there's only a few meanings that apply to a machine tool. With a company that old then there's little doubt they were producing decent quality. The seller knowing so little may or may not be a good thing for you. Likely he doesn't know the real value of what he's selling, but can't answer any questions with much accuracy.

Depending on how and where the machine is situated and if it can even be reached, a roll back car carrier could be hired to pick up and transport it to one of your shippers. It would then be easy for them to use one of there fork lifts to place it on a pallet. It would still need bolting down to that pallet and most general LTL shipping company's aren't set up or have the knowledge to do so properly. So it's a complication and your correct, the seller needs to provide some pictures and details before you can judge how much work might be involved. It would be helpful if he would be willing to also remove the machines hand wheels at least since there the first thing to get damaged while moving or shipping any machine.

[liveaboard]

Auto translate for paper documents uses OCR, optical character recognition; my brother was working on that for a startup in 1982 or thereabouts. So it's not new.
I have some home software [came with a scanner] and there are online services that are probably better, you upload images.
It's still quite flawed though.
With enough time for corrections by hand, it can work.
Old German has some symbols we don't use, making corrections hard on my US English machine.

Seller is a woman; I suspect she inherited it.
I can't go there in person, so it it happens, the movers will have to do it for better or worse.
I found another machine from the same maker; 10 years less old, same table size, looks similar, power feed all over, 1/2 the weight.
???
Can't figure it out.
Both machines have the weight on the info plate.

[pete]

One important detail I forgot to add Liveaboard. The earlier models of Deckel mills were mostly using MT 4 in there vertical spindles, and generally 30 or much more likely 40 taper in the horizontal spindle. So the vertical head could have that MT 4 as well. Afaik Deckel and most of the other Euro mill manufacturer's all used fairly common and still easy to find spindle tapers. That's of course no absolute guarantee something odd or unusual is impossible.

Very odd about that weight difference on two machines of the same general size. That one I can't come up with a logical answer to. From the little I've picked up about these types of mills they can be fairly top heavy. I'd not want to move one without it being at least lag screwed down to the pallet. Even better would be lowering the knee, removing those hand wheels as I mentioned and removing the vertical spindle and properly strapping that to the pallet. Unfortunately that all takes someone familiar with machines and moving them. At least where you are, if you get out bid on either of those machines there like a Bridgeport over here, maybe not in Portugal, but there's still lot's around and one might show up within driving distance. In North America a BP mill makes more sense just for parts and accessories. Where you are one of these Euro type mills are far more common and much better machines. But I'd also be careful about some of the motor voltages, it could get expensive trying to match what the factory built them with for some machines with higher industrial voltages. With any mills advertised as having a vise included? Gerardi would be one European made vise I know of that's very good. In Europe and even over here everyone want's a Deckel or Schaublin because there names are so well known and the prices are always high. Fortunately for you there's lots of other lesser known manufacturers where the average asking prices aren't nearly as high.

[liveaboard]

I'm not worried about voltage; I have 380 3-phase at home.
Older Euro industrial motors are 220/380, and newer ones are 380/660. It's highly unlikely to find anything that won't work on 380 [or 415 UK voltage, which is functionally the same]. changing / stepping down control voltage will not be a problem for me.

In the area I live, machine tools are rare; so distance will always be a factor.
My budget dictates machines of a certain age; 70's or before.
At that time, Portugal had little industry. Machines from that era that do exist here are worn to the bone and crazy overpriced.
When they are for sale, they're usually at the other end of the country from me.

I've done this sort of thing with used car engines and a monster mower deck for my tractor; bought online from northern EU or UK, and arranged commercial transport.
It seems few people do this; there are no borders and we mostly even use the same currency, but buyers and sellers of used things are hesitant to cross the old lines. Language is an issue of course; those automatic translators often emit confusion.

Of course there is risk, because it isn't practical to travel and inspect; but I've found that's usually the case for auctions, even if distance is moderate.
You drive, inspect, and then the price goes too high; lost a day for nothing. You do it again, then figure out the time lost was worth more than the savings.
I bought most of my machinery at auction sight unseen. If the price is low enough, it usually works out.
Since I don't have a clue about those cones, and can't inspect the machines, I'm just going to ignore that and work with whatever I get [if anything!].

I'm really looking for mills with some extras; a vice for sure.
That's the trouble with buying from a shop or dealer, the vice is always separated. They sell for huge prices; 200- 1,000 euros.
The advertisements usually say almost nothing. if there's a vice in the picture, that's all I know.

There's a working shop selling their 5 redundant Bridgeports at $2,600 each. They aren't selling very fast.

There are safety rules for workplaces in the EU that make older machines illegal in commercial shops [unless used only by the shop owner].
I haven't quite worked it out, but I think that's why these machines are so cheap in Germany.

My budget is tight and transport isn't cheap, so it's all pretty uncertain.

[liveaboard]

I heard back from the seller; she refuses to sell to me unless I come to pick it up in person in Germany.
I don't know what that's about, but I have to give it up at this point. There will be other bidders so my odds were always uncertain.

Still, it's all been very educational and next time maybe it will happen for real.

I try not to get too fixated on this sort of thing.
I just don't seem to succeed.

[RSG]

That's too bad! It's likely She just has no clue how to go about shipping it and can't be bothered.

[liveaboard]

I already arranged the shipping; sellers would only have to let them in.
I only asked for assurance that we would have access with a pallet wagon or similar.
If that thing is down a flight of stairs, getting it out will be an epic that would need a lot of preparation and more time than I would want to pay for.

Maybe they're worried the shipper will damage it and they'll be blamed. More likely it's about payment in cash.
Tax rates are huge in Europe and everyone's paranoid about money going into their accounts, even if it's technically non-income.
Many people also have odd fears of foreigners.
I shouldn't have told them I'm in Portugal until after the auction.

[pete]

I guess it wasn't meant to be Liveaboard. But it wasn't a total loss, you now know a bit more about these types of mills so you'll have better information for the next one. Your in much the same position as myself. Any used machine is going to involve time and extra shipping costs. I looked for over 10 years for a good condition, reasonably close and not insanely priced South Bend shaper. I finally figured out I wasn't getting any younger and I maybe paid at the time a couple of hundred too much, and it took a 17 hr round trip to go get it in Tacoma Washington. My little horizontal mill got shipped up from San Francisco, my lathe from Quebec and my vertical mill from New Jersey. One thing I can say, unless you already had a second parts machine, then buying anything with missing or needing immediate repair items can quickly turn into a very deep money pit. Manual machine tools small enough to meet what most of us have room for are quickly turning into a money making opportunity just for those parts. It's common now to see fully operational machines stripped down since there worth double or more as a parts machine verses something complete and operational. I'm even getting close to doubling the original cost of my horizontal mill just due to a few missing items, replacement NOS parts from pre existing damage and upgrading it to a later model. And it's taken another 10 + years to find everything I needed.

[liveaboard]

I've found that shipping costs through Europe change only slightly with distance; the main expense is the local delivery/ pickup.
And if a forklift is available it make a big difference too.

I sent a note back to the seller, said to let me know if she changes her mind before the auction ends. She has 1 bid so far.
The other machine on ebay is supposedly identical but 700kg lighter; I've googled around and found more examples, some with clear data plate images.
Some are listed as 850, or 1300, or 1500 kg.
The seller of the lighter one has no attachments with it, but it's got no bids at 500 euros and he has it on a pallet and he can load. No vice, extra attachments [like the cool overarm horizontal outer bearing holder] not present.

Could the difference in weight be explained by optional attachments that the machines were shipped with?
Bearing in mind that few seem to have retained those parts into modern times.

A long bed machine with what appears to be a large assortment of tools and attachments is for sale in Lisbon [3 hours drive, doable] for 4,000.
Transport of the machine would still cost 300-500. [truck rental at a minimum]
3,000 euros difference.
That's big money for me. Probably too big.