No More Tanks Of Welding Gas Needed (This Is Too Cool)

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ken572
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No More Tanks Of Welding Gas Needed (This Is Too Cool)

Post by ken572 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:40 pm

(ALL) :D

No More Tanks Of Any Kind Of Welding Gas Needed (This Is Too Cool)

Link:
http://www.gas-tec.com/researchdevelopment.html

Enjoy.. :wink:
Ken. :)
One must remember.
The best learning experiences come
from working with the older Masters.
Ken.

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steamin10
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Re: No More Tanks Of Welding Gas Needed (This Is Too Cool)

Post by steamin10 » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:17 pm

Uh, actually my past buddy used an AC recovery pump to charge LP bottles with natural gas, and used it on his field torches on the farm, a mini set. (Victor). He also got me to make a transfer line to suck down a small bottle of oxygen from an F , now B bottle for portable work. And you can top it up yourself, before a job rather than waste a trip to the gas house.

So far, I use LP for fuel and have a bottle exchange or fill site on most every corner, so I dont do this. Nat gas needs proper fuel hose, (LP too), and bottle pressure is different, than LP, but I think it can work with a little applied science. (brains).
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.

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ken572
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Re: No More Tanks Of Welding Gas Needed (This Is Too Cool)

Post by ken572 » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:23 am

steamin10 wrote:Uh, actually my past buddy used an AC recovery pump to charge LP bottles with natural gas, and used it on his field torches on the farm, a mini set. (Victor). He also got me to make a transfer line to suck down a small bottle of oxygen from an F , now B bottle for portable work. And you can top it up yourself, before a job rather than waste a trip to the gas house.

So far, I use LP for fuel and have a bottle exchange or fill site on most every corner, so I don't do this. Nat gas needs proper fuel hose, (LP too), and bottle pressure is different, than LP, but I think it can work with a little applied science. (brains).
Good Morning :!: Dave :D

Thanks for the input, and the story of your past buddy,
and his methods. :wink:

There sure are alot of very smart, and innovative people from
the farm community's for us to learn from.
8)

Ken. :)
One must remember.
The best learning experiences come
from working with the older Masters.
Ken.

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Re: No More Tanks Of Welding Gas Needed (This Is Too Cool)

Post by OlderNewbie » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:44 am

steamin10 wrote:Uh, actually my past buddy used an AC recovery pump to charge LP bottles with natural gas, and used it on his field torches on the farm, a mini set. (Victor). He also got me to make a transfer line to suck down a small bottle of oxygen from an F , now B bottle for portable work. And you can top it up yourself, before a job rather than waste a trip to the gas house.

So far, I use LP for fuel and have a bottle exchange or fill site on most every corner, so I dont do this. Nat gas needs proper fuel hose, (LP too), and bottle pressure is different, than LP, but I think it can work with a little applied science. (brains).
Trips to the gas house for O2 fills are not "wasted." You need to use extreme caution when transferring HP O2 from one tank to another. The system must be composed of O2-compatible, O2-clean materials, and the maximum recommended rate of transfer cannot be safely exceeded, which hard to achieve without a bespoke flow restrictor.

Oxygen fires look a lot like explosions. People get maimed and killed by not following the rules on a too-regular basis. Don't be one of them! Get the necessary education and equipment.

"Oh, I've been doing this for just years and years, and he's all wet, a regular nervous Nellie. I'll show you. It's easy. Watch!" *BOOM*.

GIYF. Take a look at some articles and pictures. It ought to be sobering.

John

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ken572
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Re: No More Tanks Of Welding Gas Needed (This Is Too Cool)

Post by ken572 » Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:40 am

OlderNewbie wrote:
steamin10 wrote:Uh, actually my past buddy used an AC recovery pump to charge LP bottles with natural gas, and used it on his field torches on the farm, a mini set. (Victor). He also got me to make a transfer line to suck down a small bottle of oxygen from an F , now B bottle for portable work. And you can top it up yourself, before a job rather than waste a trip to the gas house.

So far, I use LP for fuel and have a bottle exchange or fill site on most every corner, so I dont do this. Nat gas needs proper fuel hose, (LP too), and bottle pressure is different, than LP, but I think it can work with a little applied science. (brains).
Trips to the gas house for O2 fills are not "wasted." You need to use extreme caution when transferring HP O2 from one tank to another. The system must be composed of O2-compatible, O2-clean materials, and the maximum recommended rate of transfer cannot be safely exceeded, which hard to achieve without a bespoke flow restrictor.

Oxygen fires look a lot like explosions. People get maimed and killed by not following the rules on a too-regular basis. Don't be one of them! Get the necessary education and equipment.

"Oh, I've been doing this for just years and years, and he's all wet, a regular nervous Nellie. I'll show you. It's easy. Watch!" *BOOM*.

GIYF. Take a look at some articles and pictures. It ought to be sobering.

John
Good Morning :!: John. :D

Where is the LINK: :?:

Thanks.
Ken. :)
One must remember.
The best learning experiences come
from working with the older Masters.
Ken.

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steamin10
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Re: No More Tanks Of Welding Gas Needed (This Is Too Cool)

Post by steamin10 » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:38 pm

My transfers of 02 to a pony bottle are no more dangerous than the fill at the gas house. It consists of a simple hose and bottle connections rated for pressure and service. The only danger then is the heat of re-compression, that newbies destroy regulators with by wheeling open a fresh (and high pressure) bottle. They blame the blown diaphragm on poor construction, when the heat of re-compression takes advantage of hot-short brass diaphragms. The temperature rise in a small cavity (regulator) can be quite high, a larger space, not so much, but any compression causes heating, and cooling of the bled bottle. This exchange is all over Air Conditioning and Heat Pumps, and steam drives.

YA, there be dragons here, as put on the edges of old maps. Understanding is key, knowledge is power over your situation. There are gasoline torches from the 30's and carbide generators for acetylene, and more modern oxygen concentrators for breathing apparatus. I use what I use, and only recommend my path at times, as what I do. Understand beyond making a fire with two sticks, there is inherent value, and danger in the modern world. Fire = hot, Ice= cold. Beyond that we venture into a lot of old and controlled knowledge, to do things that would seem impossible. My Grandfather grew up with horses, and was afraid of cars. Imagine the world he saw change. No dummy, he became a machinist. I have trouble with my phone apps. I have a bag phone here someplace for the museum piece it is, and a brick phone. I still use a flip. I use old technology, and love the beat of steam and such brawn, old school things. The old technology, of the why's is getting lost. Like a blacksmith having so many tongs, and hammers, and what kind of forge. Industrial engineers make old mistakes because they do not understand the why's of the old school legacy, only the dogma of the new.

Sorry to open a window here, no question is ever simple, only our understanding.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.

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Re: No More Tanks Of Welding Gas Needed (This Is Too Cool)

Post by OlderNewbie » Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:49 pm

steamin10 wrote:My transfers of 02 to a pony bottle are no more dangerous than the fill at the gas house. It consists of a simple hose and bottle connections rated for pressure and service. The only danger then is the heat of re-compression, that newbies destroy regulators with by wheeling open a fresh (and high pressure) bottle. They blame the blown diaphragm on poor construction, when the heat of re-compression takes advantage of hot-short brass diaphragms. The temperature rise in a small cavity (regulator) can be quite high, a larger space, not so much, but any compression causes heating, and cooling of the bled bottle. This exchange is all over Air Conditioning and Heat Pumps, and steam drives.
I am a trained diving gas blender and O2 clean tech. I transfer and boost (using a Haskel pump) O2 regularly, at home, using my own equipment, though I suspect it does not much resemble yours.

You have not even *begun* to list all the things that can cause an O2 fire, nor what you have done to make sure none are present in your transfer system (did you even O2 clean it; do you know how?). What you are doing is very likely far more hazardous than you seem to believe it to be. I have no intention of telling you how to do it better here, I'm afraid, but I will repeat that proper equipment consists of more than what you list and that the costs of training and equipment--or just buying O2 fills--is a lot cheaper than the explosion that usually arises from an O2 fire.

I will not argue further. Do what you want...but please, don't do it when I'm within a hundred yards of where you're doing it.

John

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Re: No More Tanks Of Welding Gas Needed (This Is Too Cool)

Post by OlderNewbie » Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:55 pm

Good Morning :!: John. :D

Where is the LINK: :?:

Thanks.
Ken. :)
Perhaps you didn't follow GIYF. Go to http://www.google.com and type this in the seach box: oxygen explosion

Lots of articles and pictures to look over. You might also find this interesting: http://wiki.nasa.gov/oxygen-fire-incidents/wiki/home/

John

PS: I'd hate to have you run out of smileys, so here are some extras! :D :mrgreen: :lol: :wink: :o

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Re: No More Tanks Of Welding Gas Needed (This Is Too Cool)

Post by steamin10 » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:43 pm

Just as a note here, I am a certified Wreck Diver. PADI card with open gear, I have attained 110 ft depth, in the shallows of the Great Lakes. I ran the fill station at Aquanauts Odyssey Dive shop, and we had a 5 bottle cascade bank on the Shrouded tug Bettie L. From that we ran dive trips to shallow wrecks around Michigan City, and the southern tip in general. Most around 60 ft or less. My official position on the boat was 2nd Engineer, I was not the Dive Master, but security and safety were foremost when there were divers in the water, with over-watch and situation response my first order.

I conducted tank fills and the bottles afloat, all the mechanics, and tie ups, and winch lifts. (2 haul winches) in the water. At the time we used Kirby Morgan gear and dry suits, for water excavations, by umbilical. What is called Tech diving today was not available with mixed gases, to us then. It was 'New Age', and we simply did not need it.

I dont think your quick snap of what you think of my knowledge is very accurate. I have been in the steel industry all my career, and was rated first responder. I have been called to scenes of injury, fortunately, I was never involved in anything beyond minor stuff. But the potential is there.

If you would read more on the board, I am very vocal about things that can go wrong, and about safety and thinking in general. So, more to the point, If you wish to express your expert views, do so. But I dont accept 'the sky is falling' alarmist view you seem to project. On this board are many who work with moving machinery, that will remove flesh faster than steel, and drive models with steam, that have been characterized as 'rolling bombs' and all the like. Saying that, many here can build in a garage what took an entire factory to produce, in steam and 'toy' railroad equipment. So in general, I challenge the indication that we may be all idiots doing dangerous things.

In defense of the board in general, and myself in particular, we exist here to disseminate the knowledge of the group, to support people with an interest in doing unusual things away from the other masses, like gunsmithing, machining, and boiler building. Such information is given to keep everyone on the same page for basics, to educate, and sharpen performance, at whatever level they can work at. So given the spite you present, I would challenge you to make it contributory, rather than spiteful.

I bid you peace.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.

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ken572
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Re: No More Tanks Of Welding Gas Needed (This Is Too Cool)

Post by ken572 » Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:01 pm

steamin10 wrote:Just as a note here, I am a certified Wreck Diver. PADI card with open gear, I have attained 110 ft depth, in the shallows of the Great Lakes. I ran the fill station at Aquanauts Odyssey Dive shop, and we had a 5 bottle cascade bank on the Shrouded tug Bettie L. From that we ran dive trips to shallow wrecks around Michigan City, and the southern tip in general. Most around 60 ft or less. My official position on the boat was 2nd Engineer, I was not the Dive Master, but security and safety were foremost when there were divers in the water, with over-watch and situation response my first order.

I conducted tank fills and the bottles afloat, all the mechanics, and tie ups, and winch lifts. (2 haul winches) in the water. At the time we used Kirby Morgan gear and dry suits, for water excavations, by umbilical. What is called Tech diving today was not available with mixed gases, to us then. It was 'New Age', and we simply did not need it.

I dont think your quick snap of what you think of my knowledge is very accurate. I have been in the steel industry all my career, and was rated first responder. I have been called to scenes of injury, fortunately, I was never involved in anything beyond minor stuff. But the potential is there.

If you would read more on the board, I am very vocal about things that can go wrong, and about safety and thinking in general. So, more to the point, If you wish to express your expert views, do so. But I dont accept 'the sky is falling' alarmist view you seem to project. On this board are many who work with moving machinery, that will remove flesh faster than steel, and drive models with steam, that have been characterized as 'rolling bombs' and all the like. Saying that, many here can build in a garage what took an entire factory to produce, in steam and 'toy' railroad equipment. So in general, I challenge the indication that we may be all idiots doing dangerous things.

In defense of the board in general, and myself in particular, we exist here to disseminate the knowledge of the group, to support people with an interest in doing unusual things away from the other masses, like gunsmithing, machining, and boiler building. Such information is given to keep everyone on the same page for basics, to educate, and sharpen performance, at whatever level they can work at. So given the spite you present, I would challenge you to make it contributory, rather than spiteful.

I bid you peace.
Good Day :!: Dave :D

Excellent, and Very Well Put Dave. :wink: 8)

Ken. :)
One must remember.
The best learning experiences come
from working with the older Masters.
Ken.

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Re: No More Tanks Of Welding Gas Needed (This Is Too Cool)

Post by OlderNewbie » Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:28 pm

Dave,

I apologize if I seemed spiteful, nor did I mean to seem to cast aspersions on all participants here. That was not my intention. Instead, my intent was to guide you and others who read what you wrote away from a danger I thought you did not seem to appreciate. I *did* mean to be very emphatic, but not insulting. If you are in fact well aware of the hazards and using proper procedures, that's great. I know of one dive shop that had an oxygen fire a year or two ago, fortunately on a flow-restricted line going to an analyzer (where it was a fire) and not at a tank (where it would have become an explosion). They got it stopped without the place burning down, but the person who stopped it was seriously (though not life-threateningly) burned along most of the arm he used to turn off the flow at the tank valve. And I am quite certain they *do* know the rules; they handle more O2 in a month of diving season than I will ever handle in the rest of my life.

It might not seem to be in a contributory spirit, but I think a warning *is* a contribution in this case, just as Harold's emphatic admonishment to me that I not wear 5 mil latex gloves while operating a machine was a contribution. I won't offer information to help others transfill O2 online in a public forum because I am not trained to teach it, and I am concerned that someone could get hurt by reading what I write and then trying to follow my perhaps-incomplete or misinterpreted instructions. Inert gases, air, and even many pure flammable gases are all far safer to transfill without any special training or equipment. One DIY text on the construction and use of O2 systems is the Oxygen Hacker's Companion, which you can find here: http://www.airspeedpress.com/newoxyhacker.html

(As a side note, I've been a certified diver since 1972 but I've gotten a lot of additional training since then, and am what they call a mixed-gas technical diver these days. I think I have some understanding of both the old- and new-school views.)

Finally, if I am widely perceived the way you portray me, then I apologize to all here for my inability to express myself well, and I'll conclude that I should just read what others post and not attempt to contribute further.

All the best,

John

Edit: Some references:

- http://www.cbs.state.or.us/external/osh ... losion.pdf
- http://abcnews.go.com/US/scuba-tank-exp ... d=14502395
- http://www.state.nj.us/health/eoh/peoshweb/oxyalert.pdf
- http://www.alspecialtygases.com/files/D ... 3001.5.pdf

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Re: No More Tanks Of Welding Gas Needed (This Is Too Cool)

Post by Harold_V » Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:43 am

I've witnessed some interesting comments here in regards to the transfer of oxygen from one cylinder to another, which is a function I used to perform on roughly two week intervals. That was due to my refining of precious metals, where I used oxygen in combination with natural gas for melting small lots of precious metals.

I'm not well versed on the sizes of bottles, but I had (and still have) one of the large ones (250 cubic feet?), as well as the next size down. In order to ensure that I had oxygen on hand when the store was closed, I'd draw from the smaller bottle when the large one ran dry, then top it off with the newly filled large bottle. I used, and still have, a copper tubing pigtail (commercially produced -- for coupling bottles) that connects the two bottles, no regulator involved, and I crack both valves, allowing the pressure to equalize (slowly) between the two bottles. That way I always have an abundance of extra oxygen on hand, although the small bottle is never full, due in part to the larger bottle being at a lower pressure when it is full.

That being said, if there's something I'm doing that offers risk, I'd appreciate knowing what it is, and how one should safely transfer oxygen. While I no longer refine, I do use oxygen on a limited basis, and would like to continue the practice, as I am a long ways (more than 25 miles) from the supply house. I like having the smaller bottle as a back-up.

Any comments?

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

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