Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

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Glenn Brooks
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Pretty good day in the backshop, today. Worked out a simple way to align and mount the pilots to the upside frame - just clamped some random lengths of channel to the Outer frame, and set the upside down pilot beam down on the channel
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This was a worrisome step, as the height of the pilot needed to match perfectly, with the height of the frame and side walkway. but it turned out to be dead simple. In fact, so simple, and so, dead on, first time, that I walked away for coffee, to ensure it wasn’t completely bassact-wards. Nope. Dead on. Perfectly aligned with frame height, and side boards.

So, on went the clamps, and cranked up Mr. New Age Sparky to weld the pilot beam supports into their life long position! What fun!
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Here is the No. 1 hood end finished up. Even mounted the coupler plate, dead center, to see how it will work.
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Then, after confirming height and centers, welded all the hardware for no.2 hood end, and called it a day.
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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NP317
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Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: Northern Oregon, USA

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by NP317 »

Glenn:
Thanks for asking about Katherine.
Yes, I'm in Portland for the duration (3 more weeks?) of K's stroke recovery. Still paralyzed left limbs, but some motion starting yesterday.
At least she can talk this time.

We went through this in 2017 with her right side and more, and she recovered >95%, much to the surprise of her neurosurgeon!
So I have hopes she will recover again.

I signed up with her 39 years ago and I'm sticking around as needed. That's the deal.
Admittedly I've been pretty exhausted lately. We'll get there.

No shop time... duh.
RussN
Glenn Brooks
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Hi Russ, good to hear some immediate progress. Pulling for the both of you...

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Marched to the rear this week on my steps leading up the pilot.
AF56A821-91D9-437F-80DC-6CBBD0EE9A76.jpeg

Finished up a nice looking set of steps on each corner of the frame, and flipped the frame over. Immediately realized my design, and scale, was much too small compared to the rest of the cab and frame. They look nice , but are kinda Cartoonish looking, compared to the overall size of the cab.


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So after three days of thinking about whether I could live with it forever - decided no go. Back to the drawing board for full 4” scale steps.

Spent yesterday in plasma surgery, cutting out all of the existing work.
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Also, after closely studying many prototype center cabs, realized step design very often extended from the front pilot right back to the edge of the hood. So decided to make the new ones as close to true 1/3 rd scale as possible- which means doubling the length of each step to 8”.

Here is the new working footprint:
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My learning moment for freelance design is: stay with the design scale you choose in the beginning. If you must, build components larger, not smaller, than the original. People can make allowances for slightly oversize fixtures, but undersize detracts from the overall build…

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoratio

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Finally finished rebuilding the steps on both ends. Added a bit of decorative reinforcement to the inside of each truck opening. (See second and third photo). The radiused end pieces are almost true to many prototype center cab frame designs. They are although usually triangular shaped, not curved. But I figured - why not? These little end caps will perhaps further mitigate front end frame damage and resist pilot twisting, in the event of a derailment.

Anyway, the photos below are a little redundant from previous pics, but the modification of the larger step assembly and pilot extension seem to present a more robust unibody style construction. These steps are 8” x3” - which works out pretty close to 1/3 scale. Previous iterations were 5” x3”, and 3”x2”; closer to 2.5” scale - way out of scale for the original body and frame. So, as a learning project, happy that I spent the extra time to cut away the first two attempts, and replace with this.

I think this will make the pilot and frame enlargement as true to scale to as I can make it, given the overall size of the original superstructure and cab. Maybe the body size will end up being more representative of the latter 80 or 100 ton center cabs once finished - rather than the 44 toners...
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Now, on to reconstructing the cab and adding the missing sheet metal body panels.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
rkcarguy
Posts: 1730
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by rkcarguy »

That's a bummer you had to cut the steps all apart and start over, but yes the seemingly small differences in scale become huge.
Example, width of modern day rolling stock ~10', = 25" in 2.5" scale, 30" in 3" scale, and a whopping 40" wide in 4" (1/3rd) scale.
I bet new age sparky has opened up a whole new world of welding for you:)
Glenn Brooks
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Ryan, yes, struggled a bit with that decision. But in the end, this is something of a learning process, and definitely an experiment in larger scale. So worth the time...

Biggest learning moment for me so far, is stick to the scale! Freelancing is definitely creative and leads to innovations, but when in doubt, go bigger, not smaller than the established scale you’ve chosen for the build. At least that’s my working thesis now, after the three steps drill...

Yep, can’t imagine getting this far with my old Tombstone. There are a lot more bits and pieces to this frame enlargement, than I expected. Burned through two spools of wire so far. But, happy overall. And progress is quick - once I figure out what to do next...

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
rkcarguy
Posts: 1730
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by rkcarguy »

Glenn, on my S-12 build I got blueprints online that showed some of the basic dimensions and then filled in the details using an HO scale model I purchased and scaled. My hood width ended up about 3/4" wide, but it ended up having to be that way. Otherwise my GX390 engine and hydraulic pump wouldn't have fit and neither would a V-twin version if I wanted to upgrade latter.
Your Tombstone suffered a typical fate, those things didn't have any overheat protection nor adequate cooling, and its common for them to burn up.
FYI, I typically run a hotter setting to tack everything together with small tack welds, then I make sure I'm happy with it all and come back and weld it all out in one go. You can also use that setting to lay down a row of tack welds and jump around to keep heat even and minimize warping. You get the settings right and get good at spacing them and you get a nice "stack of dimes".
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Ryan, I am kind of doing the same thing- scaling off on line prints and photos. Plus, my existing, original structure seems to be a one off, semi- freelance design. I think based off Mr. Griffen’s memory, what size materials he scrounged up second hand, and what he could get to work for 12” ga + sit in and operate. Some of the dimensions are clearly oversize, such as cab height. So he could sit in it comfortably, while the wheels and trucks are sized for a smaller body. all his existing framing is channel iron stitch weld together from light gauge angle. And the angle pieces themselves have a bunch of odd holes drilled through in random places - suggesting the original structure and frame, was originally recycled material.

So, trying to reuse as much of the original material as possible, plus a lot of my steel is scavenged, second use, or rem’s...

Thanks for th tip on hot spot welding. I’ll do it that way from here on. By accident, I actually did that yesterday. Iam currently fabing coupler mounts, using 1/2” plate for the top and bottom pin supports. I jacked up the settings to 5/8” for a quick tack in the corners. Got a large, brilliant zap, and job done! Shocking actually. But very effective. Good tip. It’s amazing what proper equipment helps you get done.

How close are you to completion? I don’t think I’ve seen your most current overall photos. I’ll have to go back and peruse your build page...

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Fabed up the coupler pockets. Always a cool project to make these. These follow the Sandley design, initially suggested by Mike Decker.

One design departure I made is these to make these dual scale - accommodating 2.5” RMI couplers I presently use for 12” gauge, and possible future use of 4” scale couplers for 15” gauge. The coupler shank on the larger coupler is almost exactly 2x as large as the RMI 2.5” coupler. So 1 1/16” for the smaller shank and 2 1/8” for the larger. The heights are slightly longer than the widths. But the difference is unimportant for building the pockets.

General size of the backing plate is 6”x5”x 3:4”.
B574DF4C-5402-4402-A2DA-F42E75EB7F41.jpeg
One small detail. I fabed small flat spacers to fit inside the pocket assembly, under the smaller coupler. The spacers keep the smaller couplers aligned to the proper center height for the couplers on the goods cars.
FA23BA2D-483C-4FFB-8417-A550F4708075.jpeg
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The pic below shows how the 4” coupler will fit in the pocket.
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Still need to turn a couple of swivel pins to secure the couplers to the pockets. Good job for the morning.

Pics follow:

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
rkcarguy
Posts: 1730
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by rkcarguy »

Nice work on the coupler pockets, look great.
What tends to happen is the weld starts cold and piles up leaving a bump, then either wets out and penetrates better as you go along or overheats and the bead gets too wide or you can blow through. On short welds, the "zap, zap, zap" of a nice row of hot tacks solves this. On longer welds, I will actually grind a corner off so I have a pocket to start welding in, and then continuously weld but increase my speed to keep the weld from getting too wide/hot. Again though, this method puts a lot of heat into the weldment and warping can happen.
Regarding my progress, I haven't made much. Been working on the house and with all the availability issues due to Covid-19 I've been hopping all over from one thing to the next as I was able to get, and afford, materials. Next month though I'm due to backfill and do my dirt work involving the wetlands mitigation, during which I will also be grading the first stage of my ROW as it's immediately adjacent to this area of work. I'll be renting an excavator and a skid steer, so it will be the time to use the big equipment and get it done.
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Ryan,

Thanks. I noticed exactly what you describe, when welding them up. A little maddinging, when you want perfect looking welds. But, I always fall back on the “this is railroading” Standard. Which helps excuse some poor appearance issues...

FWIW - probably should have made the pockets bigger for the 4” couplers.

My cousin, who is a retired civil engineer, used to remind me of the old engineering rule of thumb for dirt work: a new pile of dirt(or gravel) will settle and compact 30% in the first year, and another 30% over the life of the fill... always add enuf to the grade to compensate...

BTW, thinking about having your shop laser cut a bunch of 6” or 8” diameter brake shoe parts... might need 90 or so shoes and accompanying brake hangers that can welded or silver soldered together. Each shoe 3” long radius. Wondering if you have worked up a design that would work for something like this?

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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