Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

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rkcarguy
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Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by rkcarguy »

Picture #3, looks like it became 2 USPS drop boxes haha. Maybe that is what they began life as though? I look at that shape and its just not nearly prototypical to anything to have been custom built.
I think you're on the right track with the widening and lengthening though, so it looks more like a 44-tonner.
Glenn Brooks
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Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Old Chinese proverb:
“ journey of a thousand miles. begins,
...... after you fix the equipment.”


Since last week no actual progress moving forward with welding the the frame extension to the two loose ends. Saturday the welder wouldn’t start. Lincoln tombstone, almost indestructible. Except I must have run it beyond its duty cycle last time, as now, no sparky. Dissassembled, repaired, test fire, re assemble. Two day job. Ran a test weld, sparked, then sputtered, then nothing. Likely the voltage selector dial is burned out. Going to give it away to whoever wants to mess with it and go buy a new multi tig/mig machine.

Here’s the tombstone diseassembled.
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Then, set up the new-old stock Lindsay 35 sand blaster. It was sitting in storage for years. Bad juju here also. All the rust and scale in the air cylinder and housing decided to come loose and choke up the air flow, hose, and nozzle. Disassembled three times, purged four, cleaned the nozzle six. Finally today wrapped the #1 Hood end in a giant blue tarp and sand blasted 50 years of rust off the inside frame members. Worked great, except no fun working in a dust cloud resembling sand storms blowing out of the Rub al Khali. I can still taste the grit. Even with a hood and mask.
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Decided, Next time, the whole kit and kaboodle goes off to a professional sandblaster company to be cleaned shinney bright. It will help to mig weld the frame also - Huge reduction in slag and cleanup requirements with mig. The Lincoln AC/DC tombstone served me well. But it’s time to move on.
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

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NP317
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Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by NP317 »

"The Lincoln AC/DC tombstone served me well"

May it rest in piece.
RussN
rkcarguy
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Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by rkcarguy »

Glenn Brooks wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 10:25 pm Old Chinese proverb:
“ journey of a thousand miles. begins,
...... after you fix the equipment.”
Since last week no actual progress moving forward with welding the the frame extension to the two loose ends. Saturday the welder wouldn’t start. Lincoln tombstone, almost indestructible. Except I must have run it beyond its duty cycle last time, as now, no sparky. Dissassembled, repaired, test fire, re assemble. Two day job. Ran a test weld, sparked, then sputtered, then nothing. Likely the voltage selector dial is burned out. Going to give it away to whoever wants to mess with it and go buy a new multi tig/mig machine.
It will help to mig weld the frame also - Huge reduction in slag and cleanup requirements with mig. The Lincoln AC/DC tombstone served me well. But it’s time to move on.
It's miller time! As in Miller-Matic I mean. My workplaces fabrication shop has been around for over 120 years and we've gone through a lot of machines of various brands. The ones that perform and outlast by far are the Millers.
For a replacement, there are several "trains" of thought. We generally stay away from multi-machines because they always have compromises that make them less effective for one or both processes, they aren't as reliable, and have low duty cycles. But this is in a production fab shop where we can be welding all day long.
The Miller-Multimatic 215 for example, only has a 20% duty cycle at higher settings. For the price, and hobby use, maybe this is adequate and having MIG/TIG capacities for about $2,600 with the TIG kit is a pretty good deal on a Miller package.
A Miller MIG welder in the 250/251/252 range will serve you well, you can change wire size and type to do more delicate work or install some .045" dual shield for heavy penetration on 1/4" -3/8" thick materials. New they are north of $3K now though, I'm not sure what your budget is.
Regardless, most of the Millers have fans as well as thermal protection, so when you are welding a lot and the fan comes on you know you are pushing the duty cycle. It's not just going to run until the ghost is released from something.
FYI, I have an older Millermatic 250 MIG, I built a tilt bed trailer with it and after I tacked it all up I welded it out pretty much non-stop. It was made with 3/16" wall rectangle and square tube, .140" wall pipe rails down each side for tying stuff down, and 1/4" tread plate at the back where it tapers down to the end. The fan came on multiple times but it never thermal shut down on me.
Glenn Brooks
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Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Ryan, yes indeed. Miller 250/251 a good choice for sure. I do want a high duty cycle machine, although cost will govern on this one... I don’t weld up stuff on a regular basis, but when something comes up, it’s usually a lot of work, all at once... don’t really need tig, but this size hobby parts stuff is small enuf where tig makes sense. Plus most of my weld work is tubing, as you describe, with 3” channel, angle, and 1/4 - 3/8 plate.

I recently bought two old school brass propane nozzles for silver soldering. They produce a lot of heat, similar to a rosebud, so likely could do in lieu of tig for some assemblies. Never got the time to experiment before the tombstone went off to Boot Hill.

BTW, Iam pretty sure this could be repaired, by replacing the voltage selector switch. But, for me, time to upgrade anyway.

Glenn
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
rkcarguy
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Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by rkcarguy »

The TIG welder works nice for "jewelry" detail parts, but a good MIG welder will serve you well in constructing your frames.
If you can solder and braze with what you have, that will suffice instead of TIG. I actually prefer soldering or brazing and then the joint can be touched up easily with a file or Dremel if the look isn't satisfactory.
People have been gobbling up equipment so the used market kind of sucks right now, like $2,600 for used 251 when $3K gets you a brand new one.
Glenn Brooks
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Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Yep, I can borrow a Miller 175 from a friend down the street for a couple days work on the frames and structure. That will get me over the hump....still want to set up a little brazing bench and practice some...but need to put the goat back together before getting lost in a new project.

Glenn
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Pontiacguy1
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Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Pontiacguy1 »

we've gone through a lot of machines of various brands. The ones that perform and outlast by far are the Millers.
In this case, speaking of welders, Miller is no-doubt one of the very top brands with a reputation for durability. They are typically smooth and powerful. We used to have an OLD (read:Ancient) Hobart welder at work. That thing had a huge transformer in it and could deliver a lot of power. It could make very nice welds. After the plant closed, I bet that thing didn't bring much of anything when they sold it off.

For plasma cutters, Hypertherm has that high quality reputation, and in fact, Miller buys most of their plasma cutter parts and technology from Hypertherm. They are both very durable machines, but you can buy a Hypertherm for about 10-15% less than a Miller.

I would ask how old your 'Tombstone' Lincoln welder is. The older ones were built heavier and had more copper in them. If everything else on it is good, might be worth making the repair. If it's a newer one (past 20 years or so), they weren't built as heavy-duty, so I might would let it go.
rkcarguy
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Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by rkcarguy »

^^^
There is a reason the Lincoln's are around 1/3rd of the price and lots to choose from in the used market.
I have an OLD Miller 430A TIG machine (will do stick too but setup for TIG) that came out of a shipyard decades ago. The output gage goes to 500 amps, and it draws about 120 amps of 220V power welding aluminum on high. It will also blow sloppy holes in 1/2" aluminum on high range with the gas turned up. It's an old school, tungsten contactors, giant copper transformer machine the size of a medium fridge and weighs about 900#'s. It lacks all the fancy Synchro-wave stuff and doesn't make as pretty aluminum beads on thicker stuff like the newer machines, but works great on everything else.
FYI, with a TIG the faster you can build heat and complete your weld, the better the weld is, and looks. I rarely use less than the 200 amp setting, will usually start hot and then stuff rod, reduce pedal as I move along. If you linger at the start with a lessor machine "floored", the part gets too hot by the time you get a good puddle and finish your weld. So I recommend getting the most powerful machine you can afford.
Glenn Brooks
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Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

pontiacGuy, in answer to your question, near as I can tell, my Tombstone is over the 20 year horizon- hence one of the older models. I’ve had it 5 or 8 years, and bought it used from a guy who had it a long while. In fairness, one of the amperage positions never worked- wouldn’t spark in one slot - worked fine in all the others.

Most of my welding in the future will be 3” channel and a fair bit of sheet metal - forming metal loco and car bodies over light steel framing - monocoque style. So have been thinking about what best to replace it with, anyway. The one drag back with stick is the horrendous amount of slag and cleanup needed with every weld. It’s like prepping every project three or times over. Getting tired of the grinding....

Anyway, these old Tombstones are really good machines - particularly with 6010 for penetrating through rust and paint common on field repairs and junk yard steel fab jobs.

My plasma cutter is a hypertherm, and concur, it’s a great machine also. If I had to buy one again I would buy the higher amperage machine- better penetration and edges when you have to work with 1/2” or thicker plate.

BTW, just bought a 3M half profile respirator to wear under my welding hood and protect against silica dust inhalation when sandblasting. Works perfectly. Discovered, they can be had on Amazon for half the price of the local welding store (around 15-20 bucks).

Anyway, finished sandblasting most all my bits and pieces for the frame rebuild. Tomorrow comes the layup and tacking of everything together.

Glenn
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Glenn Brooks
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Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Well, the little Lincoln 175 just isn’t up to the job. No penetration and no higher amperage available for the .030” diameter wire, I have on hand. Spent the morning doing test welds to see if the machine would be be satisfactory. It isn’t. And my skill level with mig is to rusty to push the machine beyond what it is primarily designed to do (light gauge). Iam adding 54” channel iron frame extensions to extend the body to 10’ LOA. This is where you want full penetration for high load carrying and shock resistance down the road. These welds need to pull a design weight of 12,000# consist, 20,000# if regauged to 15” in the future. Definitely no place for non-penetrating Welds. So, called a halt to the frame rebuild- until I can source a proper size welder. Miss my trusty, splatter blaster Tombstone already. Alas, would have this done already today, if it hadn’t taken a dive in the 9th, last time out.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Glenn Brooks
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Great Northern GE 44 ton Center Cab Electric restoration

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Bit of a followup. Did more testing and decided this little Lincoln is good enuf to tack up some parts. So aligned the hood ends on two frame supports and tacked both hood ends down solid - square and level on two foundation beams. This will hold the structure true to the center line, while adding the center cab frame extension pieces to the existing foundation.

Eric Lindbeck stopped by and offered to let me use his Miller 250 dualshield machine to finish weld everything. So New Plan! Tack up all frame and structural members, then yard it over to Eric’s house on my trailer, and do the production work.

Doesn’t look like much in the photos. But tacking down the hood ends and adding structure is a big step towards putting the body back together.

The extended width cab gets built out next.
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Also, settled on the size of the battery box. Decided to scrap my latest battery stowage plan of 10 full width 6V batteries in parallel (60 volts, 235 AH = 14 KWH per each hood end) and either use lithium battery modules from the Nissan Leaf (EV), or stick with a simple, experimental, 4 battery, 48 volts, system, delivering 150 Ah rating = 7Kwh. I anticipate weight and balance issues with double stacks of 6 volt batteries out at the edge of the frame. So decided to bring all the battery weight down low, and as close to the center line and gauge as possible. This was my original plan - run one battery bank to test performance, then add a second bank to extend operating capacity an run time, after assessing performance.

The new twist is a 60 volt lithium leaf battery pack is just slightly more costly than a double bank of 10 each, 12 volt batteries, or the equivalent 18 six volt lead acid batteries. Or, at least, 100 miles range with one charge. Basically, three times around Train Mountain with one fillup of electrons. Don’t need this capacity in the beginning, but nice to have the option to extend the power train down the road - with no additional modifications, save adding batteries and a battery management system, in all the spare space. Lithium batteries are 1/3 the space, 1/2 the weight, 2x as powerful, and have a 15-20 year life expectancy. So many good reasons to think about doing this...

Here’s my “CAD” drawing for the battery space and cab profile.

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Glenn
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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