Converting a Baldwin 2-4-2 LYN to a Baldwin 2-4-4

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apm
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Re: Converting a Baldwin 2-4-2 LYN to a Baldwin 2-4-4

Post by apm »

I saw something that I don't like in photos and am trying to figure out how to fix on my own engine. The way your water glass is mounted there makes me nervous. I have found the problem with that design is that the only thing holding the top of the glass fitting on is the tie rods. When it steams up, the top wants to blow off which feels rather hairy. I am curious what others think of the practice of not tieing the top fitting to something solid and counting on the tie rods to hold it all together? In a rush but may add more on this subject later.
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NP317
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Re: Converting a Baldwin 2-4-2 LYN to a Baldwin 2-4-4

Post by NP317 »

Sixteen years of operating my Allen Ten Wheeler with a similar water glass installation has worked perfectly, with no hint of problem.
During installation I did make sure to adjust pipe bends for correct alignment and no added forces to the water glass assembly.
During removal for periodic maintenance, the assembly retained correct alignment.
RussN
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Greg_Lewis
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Re: Converting a Baldwin 2-4-2 LYN to a Baldwin 2-4-4

Post by Greg_Lewis »

Hm. Just for fun let's try some math. Someone check this — math is my worst subject. But let's take an i.d. on the glass tube as 3/8. Larger than it is perhaps but this would give a greater force on the ends. So the area of that is .442 sq. in. So that times a boiler pressure of 125 per sq. in. would be 55.2 lbs. pressure on the end cap of the glass. Since there are four bolts holding the assembly together, that would then be 13.8 lbs. on each bolt. Does that sound right?
Greg Lewis, Prop.
Eyeball Engineering — Home of the dull toolbit.
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Harold_V
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Re: Converting a Baldwin 2-4-2 LYN to a Baldwin 2-4-4

Post by Harold_V »

Hey, Greg!
Lets take a closer look at your numbers. Area is determined by πxr². Radius, assuming a 3/8" (ID) tube, would be .1875". When I run the numbers, I come up with an area of only .1104²". Multiply that by the assumed 125psi and you get only 13.8 pounds. Divide that by four and it's only 3.45 lbs per bolt. Not a lot of force, for sure.

H
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Pipescs
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Re: Converting a Baldwin 2-4-2 LYN to a Baldwin 2-4-4

Post by Pipescs »

Interesting data. Thanks for the input. I have the same type of set up on the American. Seems to be rather old school method. Like my American I plan on three Tri-Cock valves to be able to continue running the engine back to the shed should I break a glass on a run. The Plan is to have two back up pieces of tubing in the spares box. If there is room it also may end up with a second water glass on the other side of the cab.

Reason being that I plan on traveling to other clubs with this engine so I will be building in redundancy for methods of adding water to the boiler and carry a lot of spare parts.
Charlie Pipes
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Pipescs
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Re: Converting a Baldwin 2-4-2 LYN to a Baldwin 2-4-4

Post by Pipescs »

After visiting with David Price and Tom Atkinson I have finally accepted the fact that my "look Alike" engine is actually turning out to be a 2 foot gauge engine in 3 3/4 inch scale. Meaning I will be building all the cars that go behind it.
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


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Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
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Re: Converting a Baldwin 2-4-2 LYN to a Baldwin 2-4-4

Post by Pontiacguy1 »

What NG engine are you working on Pointiacguy?
Working on a 2 1/2" scale 2-4-0 for someone. This is one of the old WATO locomotive works 'Lil Lima' locomotives. Of course, nothing is available for this locomotive any more. I believe WATO closed up shop about a dozen years ago, maybe longer, I'm not sure. The chassis is all done but I had to do some pretty serious modifications. I also didn't have anything as far as domes, cylinder covers, stack, headlight, etc... The domes, headlight and stack from the Fulton County 4-4-0 are just about right for it, though, so I lucked out. I don't typically model in 2 1/2" scale myself. I've got too much stuff in 1/8th scale to ever switch. Love that narrow gauge, though.
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Greg_Lewis
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Re: Converting a Baldwin 2-4-2 LYN to a Baldwin 2-4-4

Post by Greg_Lewis »

Harold_V wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:26 am Hey, Greg!
Lets take a closer look at your numbers. Area is determined by πxr². Radius, assuming a 3/8" (ID) tube, would be .1875". When I run the numbers, I come up with an area of only .1104²". Multiply that by the assumed 125psi and you get only 13.8 pounds. Divide that by four and it's only 3.45 lbs per bolt. Not a lot of force, for sure.

H

Thanks, Harold. The only reason I made it through grad school is that I didn't have to take a single math class after high school geometry. And there I got a charity C the second time around because the teacher didn't want to see me again. Now I realize I used the diameter instead of the radius for the calculations. Another justification for the third line of my sig below. :roll:
Greg Lewis, Prop.
Eyeball Engineering — Home of the dull toolbit.
Our motto: "That looks about right."
Celebrating 35 years of turning perfectly good metal into bits of useless scrap.
apm
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Re: Converting a Baldwin 2-4-2 LYN to a Baldwin 2-4-4

Post by apm »

Greg_Lewis wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:26 am
Harold_V wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:26 am Hey, Greg!
Lets take a closer look at your numbers. Area is determined by πxr². Radius, assuming a 3/8" (ID) tube, would be .1875". When I run the numbers, I come up with an area of only .1104²". Multiply that by the assumed 125psi and you get only 13.8 pounds. Divide that by four and it's only 3.45 lbs per bolt. Not a lot of force, for sure.

H

Thanks, Harold. The only reason I made it through grad school is that I didn't have to take a single math class after high school geometry. And there I got a charity C the second time around because the teacher didn't want to see me again. Now I realize I used the diameter instead of the radius for the calculations. Another justification for the third line of my sig below. :roll:
Note: I had more time so I edited the response below around 9:30pm EST on 9/2/2021 for anyone reading;

That's not the issue I am concerned with. In my case the glass is 1/2" and I believe about 5.5" tall (this is a bigger engine) in a commercial made set of valves. It is my understanding that the glass has to float loose in there and shouldn't be in contact with the metal. Due to this it is not a traditional bolted joint where you would wind up with the water tube in compression giving stiffness to the entire stack-up. I believe I may have about 1/4" total clearance (about 1/8" at the top and 1/8" at the bottom). I have some jam nuts at the top and bottom of the rods to keep the whole thing from coming loose and a rod falling out/vibrating loose in operation leading to a real scary event. What makes me uncomfortable is that the whole thing floats and moves around a decent amount during operation so much so that I am always afraid it could one day allow enough side to side motion to crack the glass and send it all shattering.

I am not concerned so much as others have mentioned about the miniscule force being put on the tie rods so much as the whole arrangement under pressure feels like it is very shaky.

Does this sound like other's experiences or am I doing something wrong with my assembly.

I have been thinking about trying to replace it with one of those reflex gauges or trying to figure out how to better anchor it. Does anybody else think think this is a valid concern? It's always seemed very unsettling to see how much side play the setup has in operation all transferred thru the glass. What do others think?
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Greg_Lewis
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Re: Converting a Baldwin 2-4-2 LYN to a Baldwin 2-4-4

Post by Greg_Lewis »

APM:
Jack writes in his J1e thread about making teflon washers for the ends of the glass. Perhaps that is what you need:
http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/vie ... &start=600
Greg Lewis, Prop.
Eyeball Engineering — Home of the dull toolbit.
Our motto: "That looks about right."
Celebrating 35 years of turning perfectly good metal into bits of useless scrap.
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Pipescs
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Re: Converting a Baldwin 2-4-2 LYN to a Baldwin 2-4-4

Post by Pipescs »

Chasing an old lead on the existents of a Winson Lyn model that was photographed in Riverside California a number of years back.

Does anyone have contact with the owner of this engine?
baldwin-2-4-2a.jpg
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Charlie Pipes
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Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
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BAdams
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Re: Converting a Baldwin 2-4-2 LYN to a Baldwin 2-4-4

Post by BAdams »

Hi Charlie - I'll send you a PM.

Brook
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