12" Guage Wheel Standard

Discuss park gauge trains and large scale miniature railways having track gauges from 8" to 24" gauge and designed at scales of 2" to the foot or greater - whether modeled for personal use, or purpose built for amusement park operation or private railroading.

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dnevil
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12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by dnevil » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:53 am

I had a request come in for a 12-inch Gauge wheel/track standard, but the IBLS does not currently have one. I found the article 'WF&P 12" Gauge Wheel Standard' by Kenneth Davis published in Live Steam & Outdoor Railroading, Sep/Oct 2015. Does anyone know of other 12" gauge wheel standards/drawings out there to compare against this one?

Thanks,
Daris
Daris Nevil
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rkcarguy
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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by rkcarguy » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:09 am

I'm downsizing the 15" spec by 20%(difference between the two scales) for my RR. Comes out to a flange height of a little over 1/4".

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dnevil
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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by dnevil » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:25 am

What is your distance of the wheel back-to-back? The WF&P spec calls for 11-3/8 inches.
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rkcarguy
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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by rkcarguy » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:08 am

I drew mine in CAD and came up with 10.998" back to back. Not sure that's right. Basically I'm going to be turning my wheels from 1" plate, turn a 5/16" x 5/16" rough flange, then cut 10* tapers on each side of the flange and the 3* taper on the wheel surface coming together into a 1/8" radius. My tracks are the steel flat bar "groovy track" method at 12.080" apart on the straights and 12.125" on curves. Actually I'm not sure I even need to bring my curves out to 12.125", as I'm going to keep the turn radius at 40' minimum.
My understanding is that I want the end of the flange radius to land on the end of the radius on the edge of the rail(the horizontal ends of the radius). This way as the train goes through the curves it's forced into the radius, effectively making the outside wheel bigger and helping the train turn.
Last edited by rkcarguy on Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

K. Brouwers
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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by K. Brouwers » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:19 am

Good day,
I have also been looking for track standards for 12.25 inch gauge also. There is a web page that I found that has standards for 10.25 inch gauge. http://www.rhinoindustries.co.uk/?p=engineering Whether these are their own standards or recognized by other groups also I do not know. I am in the process of designing a 12 1/4 gauge locomotive and intend to use the narrow gauge profile with the back to back spaced out another 2 inches. I hope this is helpful.
Cheers
Karel

rkcarguy
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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by rkcarguy » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:51 am

Ok, if I run a 1/8" flange radius and figure the steel flat bar has a 1/16th radius on it's rounded corner, I come up with a 11.305" back to back. If I was to grind the radius on the flat bar rails to 3/32, I'd be really close to 10-3/8". Also, my flange profile I came up with is a little thick, I wanted some extra to be able to machine off as the wheels wear. Instead of being pressed on against a shoulder, my wheels will be TIG welded to a 1" straight axle with 3-4 tiny welds that I can cut away with the lathe, machine the flange/wheel as needed, and bump the wheels back out to the proper width and TIG weld again.
I'll post a screen shot of my CAD drawing at lunch time.

Just noticed you are with IBLS, I'd love for you guys to have a 12" spec. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any current spec out there that anyone is following.

Glenn Brooks
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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by Glenn Brooks » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:11 pm

James Pekarek runs several 12” ga locos on his private track. In some old correspondence with James, he reports he has adopted a comprise wheel standard such that he builds his switches to accommodate a BtoB measurement of 10 7/8” to 11” 3/8”. James also mentioned that using bearings on the axles can be problematic, if the bearing isn’t mounted correctly. A slight misalignment will cause the wheel flange to wobble slightly when in motion, leading to derailments and striking of frogs etc.

I’ll have to go measure my flanges on the Ottaway and Campbell 4-4-0 and report back. I don’t remember what they are.

I’ve often thought flange depth and width should correspond to actual 12 pound rail head measurements, rather than scaling down different sized locomotives.

Developing a 12” gauge “standard” would be a wonderful idea. At least a definitive list of existing measurements from the existing equipment would give prospective builders some guidelines to work with.

Glenn
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by rkcarguy » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:23 pm

I've been wanting to know what your equipment measures out at, Glenn. I'm not sure if you would have any interest in visiting my PG&F when it's done, but it would never hurt to have everything built to the same standard.
Flange radius is also rather important, as if the radius is very large on the wheels, the groovy track could cause accelerated wheel wear in the flange radius area. You can just lay a drill bit into the flange radius and see what size fits right, 1/4" drill bit = 1/8" radius.
Most important is flange width and how it relates to guard rail spacing and frogs on turnouts, too much variance here and one won't work on another.
Last edited by rkcarguy on Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by Glenn Brooks » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:30 pm

Ryan, yep,it would fun to run on your track. Especially as you will have significantly more mainline than my small oval.

I’ll get flange radius and width off both locos and update my last post. Not sure how valuable the Campbell measurements will be. He was one of the first guys to build in 12” gauge. I’ve never discovered what he based his wheel measurements on.i suspect 12”gauge is largely based on the dimensions of 12 pound mining rail.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

rkcarguy
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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by rkcarguy » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:42 pm

Yes, I've seen your wheels on a couple of your pieces of rolling stock and they look like mining type wheels so it's hard to tell what you have there. As long as I have a wide enough tire, I think I will be ok on other 12" tracks. Maybe not ideal as my flange radius is going to be small compared to real rail shaped steel, so it may not track well but it will work. Wish I could use the real stuff like you have, but at ~3000'+ of it for all three phases it just isn't in the budget for me.

EVGEN
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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by EVGEN » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:06 pm

It's bad that there is no standard for a track of 12 ". Which rail is used for the 12 "gauge?

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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by Mike Walsh » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:58 pm

WF&P is probably the oldest operating 12" gauge railroad in the United States. We are probably the longest mainline run as well (with an additional 4k foot extension yet to be opened). We celebrated 75 years in 2015.

I have heard that in some areas our rail gauge is as wide as 12-5/8" to accommodate the wheelbase of some of our larger equipment. Couldn't tell you actual track gauge without going down there. However when I have machined axles and wheels for the WF&P, I have ensured that we follow the 12" gauge with a 5/16" flange width, resulting in a 11-3/8" B2B.

I can tell you that if such a standard was established, I wouldn't expect the WF&P to conform because we simply have too much equipment to convert and just not enough manpower to even comprehend how we would do so. Jim Pekarek runs his equipment at the WF&P from time to time and I don't believe he's had issues. If he has, its been far and few in between.

Just my thoughts. I'd rather spend my time machining parts and fixing engines than regauging equipment at the WFP :)

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