12" Guage Wheel Standard

Discuss park gauge trains and large scale miniature railways having track gauges from 8" to 24" gauge and designed at scales of 2" to the foot or greater - whether modeled for personal use, or purpose built for amusement park operation or private railroading.

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rkcarguy
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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by rkcarguy » Fri May 17, 2019 5:44 pm

I've sized my wheel burnouts for a 5/16 wide (minus the 10* flange angle cut), by 1/4" deep flange when new, and left myself 1/8" of extra meat on the wheels which will allow several re-turns if needed. The flanges could either be left alone and would "grow" in depth as the "tire" was turned down, or turned down along with the tire. So if I was running on someone else's RR, my wheel may drop a little bit into their frogs and theirs would ride up through my frogs. I'm actually making the "root" of my frogs screw in though, so this isn't that big of a deal either.

This brings up another question of mine. I've assumed that when a wheel navigates a frog, that the bottom of the frog is supposed to be close to(obviously a bit deeper to account for wear) the flange depth to support the wheel for that short moment where it hops over the gap in the rails?

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davidqueener
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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by davidqueener » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:26 pm

Gentlemen,

Hello, my name is Dave Queener and I have been lurking about the Grand Scales discussion forum for some time, but have remained quiet until now, when it seems I will actually have the opportunity to build a Grand Scale outdoor railroad on 9 acres that I have inherited from my parents. I have corresponded privately with both Glenn Brooks and Mike Walsh, and I was a member of the WF&P in St. Louis during the early 90s while at seminary. So I have been around some grand scale equipment, though most of my modeling has been done on the garden railway side of the hobby.

I am contemplating building a dual gauge layout of 7.5" and 12" gauges, modeling in 2.5" scale, that way I could have both 3' narrow gauge and standard gauge models operating together in an appropriate scale. Since live steam railroading is something of a social affair, and my family and I enjoy entertaining, I do not want to exclude fellow railroaders from the smaller 1.5" scale / 7.5" gauge phase of the hobby, who may chose to visit. The question is, can 7.5" / 1.5" scale equipment run on dual gauge track, if the flangeways are built to these proposed IBLS / WF&P standards, and use 12 lbs. rail with its distinct head profile?

I really would not want to build my railroad out of 1" tall aluminum rail in order to accommodate my friends in 7.5" gauge, since it would look undersized and I suspect the wear on the rail head from larger, proportionally heavier 12" gauge equipment would be significant over time. So the issue is two fold: (1) flangeway width for 12" gauge and (2) the rail profile being used, namely the measurement of that radius on the head of the rail.

Any ideas, gentlemen?

Thanks,

Dave Queener
Knoxville, Tennessee
Pastor, St. Paul Presbyterian Church
www.StPaulPres.com (865) 209-5654

Owner, Cumberland Model Engineering
www.CumberlandModelEngineering.com (865) 333-5712

STRR
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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by STRR » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:34 pm

Hello Dave,

I would like to make a suggestion. While not as readily available as 12 lb. rail, there are both 8 lb. and 10 lb. rail around. 8 lb. rail being more common and last I checked still available new, might serve better on a dual gauge/dual scale railroad. Both would be plenty strong enough for 12" and 7.5" gauges/trains. At one time Roll Models, Ind. sold new 8 lb. rail and connectors. I haven't been to their website in a long time so I don't know if they still offer 8 lb. rail or not. They are a good company to deal with.

Just a thought that might answer your concerns about rail profile/flange profile potential problems. I have a tie spacing chart for rail sizes, tie spacing, and point loading should you need some information.

Good Luck,
Terry

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davidqueener
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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by davidqueener » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:22 am

Thanks, Terry, I will try to find Roll Models, or whomever has their product line. Glenn and I had talked about using 8lbs. rail, but the difficulty is finding it. The used stuff is from the 1920s--mine rail--and there is new stuff being produced, but in China!

Best Regards,

Dave Q
Pastor, St. Paul Presbyterian Church
www.StPaulPres.com (865) 209-5654

Owner, Cumberland Model Engineering
www.CumberlandModelEngineering.com (865) 333-5712

rkcarguy
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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by rkcarguy » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:46 am

I'm using 3/8x1 steel flat bar and the "groovy track" method for the rail for my 12" gage RR (2" scale), as it's actually close to siding and spur sized rail in scale and is low in cost. With ties spaced 3-1/2" apart it easily supports 300#'s per wheel with no deflection. You can find it with a decent radius on it but it can vary by the mill and even the heat #, so I'd advise getting a big bundle of all at once from the same manufacturer.
I think you'll be able to get the 8# rail but you may need to order a bunch of it (like 3000' +) and wait awhile for the mill to run it. The biggest problem I see is that the flange rail spacing and gaps in the frogs are going to be larger for the 12" equipment flange width and the 7.5" is going to be pretty sloppy in the same and may cause derailments.

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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by UPsteamfan » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:45 am

rkcarguy wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:46 am
I'm using 3/8x1 steel flat bar and the "groovy track" method for the rail for my 12" gage RR (2" scale), as it's actually close to siding and spur sized rail in scale and is low in cost. With ties spaced 3-1/2" apart it easily supports 300#'s per wheel with no deflection. You can find it with a decent radius on it but it can vary by the mill and even the heat #, so I'd advise getting a big bundle of all at once from the same manufacturer.
I think you'll be able to get the 8# rail but you may need to order a bunch of it (like 3000' +) and wait awhile for the mill to run it. The biggest problem I see is that the flange rail spacing and gaps in the frogs are going to be larger for the 12" equipment flange width and the 7.5" is going to be pretty sloppy in the same and may cause derailments.
Could you share a photo of your track please?
Maple Leaf Family Rail System

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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by rkcarguy » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:49 pm

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=105660&start=624

That's my riding car frame sitting on my turnout at the bottom of this page.

rkcarguy
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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by rkcarguy » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:51 pm

dnevil wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 10:05 am
I've created a first draft for a 12" Gauge Wheel Standard. Take a look.

http://ibls.org/files/Standards/IBLS%20 ... 0Gauge.pdf

This is based on the WF&P standard as published in Live Steam and Outdoor Railroading, Sep/Oct 2015.

I welcome feedback.
Just an update. I turned my riding car wheels mostly within these specs and they seem to work well. I can twist a wheelset quite sideways on a section of track and start rolling it and it straightens itself out. Even on my poor boy 3/8 flat bar rails, I'm getting a good contact point about 1/3rd of the way out from the wheel flange and about 1/8" in from edge of the flat bar.

Working with the 12" IBLS standards posted above, I have the following:

Track Gauge TG = 12.080" on straights, 12.125" on curves.
Flangeway Width WW (for guardrail spacing on turnouts and trestles) = .393"
Flange Height FH = .313" I turned this shallow so as my wheels wear and are re-turned I will come more into the .375" spec and effectively double my wheel life before I hit the .438" max.
I deviated from the tire width, I am using 1" thick blanks of plate for my wheels. As long as you are using 12# rail or less, and don't exceed 12-1/4" on the track gauge, nothing will "fall between the rails" or contact the rails right on the edges of the "tire". Of course if you can get 1-1/4"+ wide blanks or castings, by all means use them instead.
Note: Wheel back to back WB is dependent upon how deep the flange radius is cut on the back of the wheel. My machining method has been to turn the tire to diameter (no angles yet), rough in a 5/16" wide x 5/16" deep flange with a lathe bit ground with a .156" radius to get "GR" correct, press the wheels on the axle so "WG" is 12.000", and THEN turn the tread and flange angles ("FA" is the same width on both sides). The bolded is important, because once you turn the flange angles it becomes very difficult to measure "WG" as it is a point now "floating in space".
Lastly, the math doesn't seem to work on the 10* flange angle "FA", it didn't leave enough meat on the flange to fit the .125" radius "FR" and would get worse the deeper "FH" is. I ended up using 8* instead. I drew the profile in CAD, so didn't end up scrapping a wheel to figure this out. Should "FA" have been 10* Max, not Min?

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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by Mike Walsh » Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:34 am

Glenn Brooks wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:11 pm
Mike and Dave, et al,

In addition to flange measurements, two Additional measures that builders are always interested in are the overall width of the wheel, and axle diameter. If these two things were included in a 12 gauge standard, it would save new builders a lot of time in the design and construction of their equipment. And in the long run contribute to safety.

While actual diameter is really a function of load carrying capacity, publishing a discussion on 12” axle diameters or even a range of diameters would be very helpful. I could see a sub paragraph devoted to a rule of thumb for determining safe axle diameter based on class of use. For instance my Ottaway axles are 1 1/4” diameter, yet some flimsy, el cheap-O 16” park gauge trucks I recently acquired were originally built with 1/2” round stock or less axles. I guess they are OK for maybe a light weight kiddie train, but I can’t imagine why anyone would build such thing for general use age, unless they didn’t know any better. Hence the value of publishing recommended, or voluntary standards for all the major live steam gauges.

Dave, I do hope you will pursue adding a 12 inch gauge standard to the IBLS wheel standards.

Thanks much,

Glenn
Hi,

It's been a while since I've reviewed the meat of this thread and I have one concern.

If we propose an IBLS axle diameter standard, could we be potentially setting up IBLS (and those advising IBLS) to some sort of liability? I see that Glen is thinking that it would contribute to safety, but that requires that we put some engineering and liability behind this and I'd rather not see the hobby be damaged because we thought it'd be a good idea to propose axle standards. I am not for proposing an axle standard. If you are building a railroad, you are taking on some sort of liability and selection of material(s) should fall under that.

That being said, there are ASTM standards for park railroads and that is a whole nother ballgame... :)

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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by rkcarguy » Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:14 pm

Mike Walsh wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:34 am
Hi,

It's been a while since I've reviewed the meat of this thread and I have one concern.

If we propose an IBLS axle diameter standard, could we be potentially setting up IBLS (and those advising IBLS) to some sort of liability? I see that Glen is thinking that it would contribute to safety, but that requires that we put some engineering and liability behind this and I'd rather not see the hobby be damaged because we thought it'd be a good idea to propose axle standards. I am not for proposing an axle standard. If you are building a railroad, you are taking on some sort of liability and selection of material(s) should fall under that.

That being said, there are ASTM standards for park railroads and that is a whole nother ballgame... :)
I work in construction and so much of what we can and can't do revolves around liability risk in "litigious America", so I get it.
Maybe it could be posted as a minimum diameter recommendation only, as it's certainly subject to craftsmanship or lack thereof, various or wrong materials, or faulty assembly (someone welding a hardened axle shaft to the wheels for example).

One can simply look at low grade bolt deformation and shear strength forces to get an idea where they need to be for axle size. Often, things like reamers, bearings, bushings, hubs, collars, and the like are cheaper and more common in 3/4" and 1" sizes than they are in smaller sizes, so it doesn't hurt the wallet to go bigger on these things as well as the increased safety and load carrying capacity.

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Re: 12" Guage Wheel Standard

Post by Glenn Brooks » Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:02 pm

People starting out in the hobby often have no idea what axle or wheel sizes they should use when building or repairing equipment. Even today, axle size and material recommendations are amongst the least documented aspect in the hobby- but are critical for safety and longevity of operation. For example, I’ve never found a discussion, or even rule of thumb, that talks about what diameter to turn axle ends to accommodate bearings or wheel loading. Axles are fundamental to good operating practice, yet we have virtually no knowledge base to guide our design and build methods

A “standard” can easily include a range of diameters. My thought is we ought to at least develop a peer reviewed “best practices” appendix, or “material recommendations” document to identify appropriate axles sizes, and perhaps even basic suspension loading criteria, for the various scales and gauges.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

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