Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

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ALCOSTEAM
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Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by ALCOSTEAM » Sun May 02, 2021 2:01 pm

Here are some pics of the compressor that came back with the 128.
sandley 128 front.jpg
Lots of missing parts, including the compressor heads and most of the check valve parts. I have made replacement check valves and need to get around to making new heads.
sandley 128 compressor.jpg
This is what the pump used to have for check valves, minus the little check insert.
sandley 128  MD  updated valve parts.jpg
sandley 128  valves.jpg
If you notice the slide valve covers are made of plexiglass. I would assume the compressor was giving trouble and in an effort to sort it out someone made covers they could see thru. The pump will run on air but its weak, I haven't messed with it in a couple years as its just a back burner project. Drawings would be nice to have, unfortunately no one at the R&GN seems to know where or if they exist anymore.

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Erskine Tramway
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Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Erskine Tramway » Sun May 02, 2021 2:57 pm

Glenn Brooks wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 1:41 pm
Thanks Mike, very helpful. I’m headed back to Phoenix later in the year. I’ll take a day off and see if I can inspect number three more closely to see what’s going on. Quite possible number three doesn’t have much more to offer. Ban hammer never completed the engine before he passed away, so it’s possibile, the air pump is just there for looks.
Hi Glenn...
Looking at the picture of #3, it's likely that the pump is just mounted backwards, and the check valve casings are screwed into the back side of the cylinders instead of the front.

The plumbing on the back side of your pump doesn't have individual discharge checks, but probably just one at the base of the 'T' in the 'manifold'. The pump on the #128 had brass street elbows screwed into the top air cylinder bosses, that I used to drop some light oil in, every couple days, to lubricate the pistons. I later designed a regular air cylinder oil cup like the big Westinghouse ones, but I don't have a drawing here. Here's a page from a Santa Fe air brake book showing what I mean.

Keeping all the assorted pipes and check casings screwed together tightly, was one of the reasons we designed a new cast air cylinder with the air passages and check seats built in. The flow on the check valves is from the flat side to the 'pointy' side. With the new castings, they fit in with their gaskets, and just a screw plug kept them tight. I also designed a 'canister', Type 54, Air Filter for the new cylinders. We had a box full of filters...we had to buy 100...that fit inside a brass fabricated 'can' that was open at the bottom, and piped to the two cylinder Inlet connections. Here's a picture, I think I got from 'alcosteam' that shows the check side of the new cast cylinders. And...a picture of the brake valves for the #6-ET Brake Schedule...Mt. Dew can for scale :D They are half size, contrary to popular belief that they are some other scale, the full sized ones aren't very big.

The heads on the Duplex pumps are full of drilled passages. The left steam valve controls the right cylinder, and vice-versa. One piston will make a stroke, and as the stroke is finishing, it moves the valve, and the other cylinder will make a stroke...and keep doing that until the main steam valve shuts it off. BTW, the governor never does completely shut the pump off, it just slows it down to a stroke every few seconds, so that it doesn't fill up with condensate, account there are no 'cylinder cocks', just drain valves that you open when you first start the pump, just like on the big ones. Here's a drawing of my 'Type A' Governor. Back then, we couldn't afford Lost Wax, so the design is a fabrication from brass/bronze. Nowadays, with 3-D printing and cheaper Lost Wax, it would be a no brainer.

Mike
Attachments
air cylinder lubricator.jpg
sandley air pump back side.jpg
PICT0053.JPG
Type A governor.jpg
Former Locomotive Engineer and Designer, Sandley Light Railway Equipment Works, Inc. and Riverside & Great Northern Railway 1962-77
BN RR Locomotive Engineer 1977-2014, Retired

Glenn Brooks
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Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks » Sun May 02, 2021 3:19 pm

Thanks, Mike. Very helpful. I’ll beginning to understand the operation and complexity of the pumps now. BTW, I double checked, my pump has both inlet and outlet passages drilled square in center of the casting. Not sure if that is a mistake, or simply another version. Also wondering if that is a mistake that might hinder operation of the pump. Makes more sense to drill the inlet to the left side, as that passage operates the right hand cylinder.

Also, another unknown, Ben or someone stamped “S” and “E” on the side plate ports on the square housing atop the steam cylinders. I assumed that meant ‘Steam in’ and ‘Exit’. Now, not sure at all what that means...

Haven’t tried to operate the pump on air yet, so don’t know if it is operable, or if there are mods to design. Also not sure when Ben purchased it. It seems like an early model pump - early 60’s perhaps - based on your descriptions. Yet this is the third one he worked on, and would have been intended for use on Eng #4 in the late ‘90’s, unless it was to be a spare right from the beginning.

Also, no governor that I remember, thus far. My crate of patterns and castings is still enroute.

Small mysteries abound...

Glenn
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

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Erskine Tramway
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Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Erskine Tramway » Sun May 02, 2021 3:30 pm

ALCOSTEAM wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 2:01 pm
Here are some pics of the compressor that came back with the 128.

If you notice the slide valve covers are made of plexiglass. I would assume the compressor was giving trouble and in an effort to sort it out someone made covers they could see thru. The pump will run on air but its weak, I haven't messed with it in a couple years as its just a back burner project. Drawings would be nice to have, unfortunately no one at the R&GN seems to know where or if they exist anymore.
Hi LOCOSTEAM...

All somebody at The Dells needs to do is look in the drawers in the table in my Drafting Office. I don't know where the tracings are, but there were prints in the drawers the last time I was there, a couple years ago. Individual part drawings would be A (8-1/2x11) or B size (11x17) drawings. I think we modified the head on the 128's pump to have screw-in packing glands for the reversing rods. That way, you can adjust the packing, without having to mess with the steam chests, like we did when the 'gland' was soldered into the bottom of the steam chests. If you look on the drawings I put here earlier, there are Part Numbers on every part. The Part Numbers are the Drawing Numbers.

If it's weak, I'd look for leaks, running it on air won't tell you everything anyway. we always tested a repaired pump on steam. Maybe it's blowing by the rings. Steam could be blowing by the packing on the reversing rods, and into the top of the cylinders. It hasn't run in years, the rings and cylinders are both iron, they might be rusty, or worn, or the cylinder bores are worn, or the valves need grinding in...it probably hasn't been maintained since it left The Dells, 40 years ago. It might have been run dry, and scored the cylinders.

When I left there, in 1977, that pump was having no trouble pumping way past the 60 pounds of Main Reservoir pressure we were carrying, and holding within a few pounds during a Full release of a ten-pound set on a 5 car train. The way the Society has the triple valves set up takes way too much air anyway. We had them set so that a 10-pound Brake Pipe reduction put 10 pounds in the brake cylinders, and that was all it took to stop the train. Having to make a 20-pound reduction just to get the brakes to start applying is nutz...all it does is waste a lot of air that you have to pump back up. Sorry, rant over. Air Brake has been my 'thing' since I was in High School, and right up to my last trip on the BN, much to the Company's consternation :lol:

Mike
Former Locomotive Engineer and Designer, Sandley Light Railway Equipment Works, Inc. and Riverside & Great Northern Railway 1962-77
BN RR Locomotive Engineer 1977-2014, Retired

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Erskine Tramway
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Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Erskine Tramway » Sun May 02, 2021 4:02 pm

Glenn Brooks wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 3:19 pm
Thanks, Mike. Very helpful. I’ll beginning to understand the operation and complexity of the pumps now. BTW, I double checked, my pump has both inlet and outlet passages drilled square in center of the casting. Not sure if that is a mistake, or simply another version. Also wondering if that is a mistake that might hinder operation of the pump. Makes more sense to drill the inlet to the left side, as that passage operates the right hand cylinder.

Also, another unknown, Ben or someone stamped “S” and “E” on the side plate ports on the square housing atop the steam cylinders. I assumed that meant ‘Steam in’ and ‘Exit’. Now, not sure at all what that means...

Haven’t tried to operate the pump on air yet, so don’t know if it is operable, or if there are mods to design. Also not sure when Ben purchased it. It seems like an early model pump - early 60’s perhaps - based on your descriptions. Yet this is the third one he worked on, and would have been intended for use on Eng #4 in the late ‘90’s, unless it was to be a spare right from the beginning.

Also, no governor that I remember, thus far. My crate of patterns and castings is still enroute.

Small mysteries abound...

Glenn
Hi Glenn...

It really doesn't make any difference where the external steam connections are left-to-right. Both the inlet and exhaust passages go completely across the length of the head. The inlet comes out in the steam chests, outside the line of the valves. The exhaust passages go from the center port in the steam valve seat to the rear outlet. Anything is possible with these pumps. There were changes made as better ideas came along. There are probably no two exactly alike. Your pump looks like a 'composite' design, because it's bolted together, instead of being 'clamped' together like the one on #127, but it still has the plain, turned, air cylinders with individual check valves, where the #127's pump has all the checks in a 'manifold' behind the cylinders. The 'S' and 'E' probably mean Steam and Exhaust, there's no other way to tell, without looking inside the steam chest and seeing which side the steam inlet passage is. There are four holes on the valve face, the inlet, out by the side, the exhaust in the center, and the passages to the top and bottom of the other cylinder. And, if you think I can remember which is which at this late date, without looking at the drawing, you are sadly mistaken :lol:

I don't think any pumps except ours on the R&GN Ry. had governors, mostly, they were more-or-less governed by the throttle valve. In that situation, the Main Reservoir pressure varies according to the boiler pressure. The Governor gives you a pretty steady pressure regardless of boiler pressure fluctuations. There were never any of my Governors built.

Mike
Former Locomotive Engineer and Designer, Sandley Light Railway Equipment Works, Inc. and Riverside & Great Northern Railway 1962-77
BN RR Locomotive Engineer 1977-2014, Retired

Glenn Brooks
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Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks » Sun May 02, 2021 6:52 pm

Any idea how many pumps were built and placed in operation? I think I may have actually acquired two or three extra steam chest castings for these pumps, and some other miscellaneous stuff. But don’t know yet exactly what the misc compomonets are, until they arrive and get unpacked.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

Glenn Brooks
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Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks » Sun May 02, 2021 6:53 pm

Any idea how many pumps were built and placed in operation? I think I may have actually acquired two or three extra steam chest castings for these pumps, and some other miscellaneous stuff. But don’t know yet exactly what the misc compomonets are, until they arrive and get unpacked.

In any event, this thread might be an excellent resource now for anyone else who has one.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

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Erskine Tramway
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Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Erskine Tramway » Mon May 03, 2021 12:03 am

Glenn Brooks wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 6:52 pm
Any idea how many pumps were built and placed in operation? I think I may have actually acquired two or three extra steam chest castings for these pumps, and some other miscellaneous stuff. But don’t know yet exactly what the misc compomonets are, until they arrive and get unpacked.

Glenn


I don't know Glenn. We only built two new 2-1/4" Duplex Pumps while I was there. When we bought castings, the foundry required a minimum of twelve sets, so there could be as many as twelve 'original' style, and a couple of them with the improved air cylinders.

There were 13 brake valve sets, plus a pair that were on the test rack. One set went on the 128, my original set onto Augie Otto's CB&Q Hudson, one set on the Milwaukee Zoo Pacific. I have the set I showed the photo of. The Society has at least one set. As far as I know, Norman sold the rest of them, and the tooling, to Mercer, when he was hard up for money. Note he said they were 1/4 size, when in fact they are 1/2 size.

Mike
Attachments
Mercer ad.jpg
Former Locomotive Engineer and Designer, Sandley Light Railway Equipment Works, Inc. and Riverside & Great Northern Railway 1962-77
BN RR Locomotive Engineer 1977-2014, Retired

Rob Gardner
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Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Rob Gardner » Mon May 03, 2021 10:52 am

Glenn,

I recognized the photo of the 4-4-0 on the turntable with the red roundhouse in the background. There is a very private 15" gauge railroad near Seattle, I believe. The property is known as Celadon. It's an estate/private event center. Have not been able to find out much about it, but I suspect there are more than a couple of long lost missing 15" gauge gems inside that roundhouse.

Rob Gardner

Glenn Brooks
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Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks » Thu May 06, 2021 9:06 pm

Hi Rob, Thanks. Good call, indeed you are correct. That is the location of the photos. I finally stopped in there last week, to ask if they would host our little informal live steam club for meeting and look see. alas only to discover Ben’s loco #2, and a very nice looking Barto &Thralls Pacific, (engine number 4410) built:1957, had been sold and were being prepared for shipment to the new owner that very day. The estate manager was kind enough to show me around and I got a chance to get a quick look at three locos in the roundhouse. The fourth, a diesel, was out on the mainline with the shipping crew, tearing up rail for the new owner.

Eventually the RR will be on display in the Las Vegas area, and giving rides to the public.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2451
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks » Thu May 06, 2021 9:15 pm

Quick followup.

Just did a google search for Barto and Thrall Locomotive. Came up with an IBLS citation that has several photos and a brewed bit of personal history for Frank Barto, the machinist who built the loco.

http://ibls.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Frank_

The estate owners did not wish tohave any photos of their property posted to social media, So I am unable to post current pics. However, these old newspaper clipping give a fair representation of the Pacific - truly a Museum piece...

Also, low and behold,,, we have a previous thread here on Chaski concerning the status and whereabouts of the Barto loco... now we now the other half of the story... and at least, where it is headed next...

viewtopic.php?t=107342

GPB.
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

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