Woodinville Shops

Discuss park gauge trains and large scale miniature railways having track gauges from 8" to 24" gauge and designed at scales of 2" to the foot or greater - whether modeled for personal use, or purpose built for amusement park operation or private railroading.

Moderators: Glenn Brooks, Harold_V

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Topics may include: antique park gauge train restoration, preservation, and history; building new grand scale equipment from scratch; large scale miniature railway construction, maintenance, and safe operation; fallen flags; track, gauge, and equipment standards; grand scale vendor offerings; and, compiling an on-line motive power roster.
rkcarguy
Posts: 1488
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by rkcarguy » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:40 pm

Glenn Brooks wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:47 pm
Thanks Ryan,

The sides and top appear unaffected. They are like new- and have some kind of different coating- looks copper or gold colored, and doesn’t have the thick, hardened putty like substrate. Very good observation about the coating possibly causing the corrosion. Hadn’t thought about that.

What do you think about using Gluvit as a seal sealer inside the tank? It’s used fairly effectively on aluminium boats as a sealer. I have a free quart on hand...

Thanks for the offer on the laser cut frame. Iam pretty confident I can fab up a similar frame with materials on hand. I installed the little front inspection plate using the stud welding technique, and sort of stitch welding the edges of the sheetmetal to the flat bar frame. Worked well so far. If it all goes sideways, I’ll give you a call. (btw, still working on a boiler drawing to send your way.)

Appreciate your comments on welding sheet metal and distortion. I was having second thoughts about the inspection plate method this morning. But now, decided to go ahead and do it that way. That method has always worked for me in the marine world in the past.

Glenn
We've made numerous openings with this method for inspection plates and repairs in everything from gas tanks that are NLA to aircraft floats, it works well. Having taken a lot of stuff apart that wasn't done right, I've encountered a lot of corrosion caused by the sealant or even rubber hoses attacking the metal or holding moisture in itself which corrodes the metal. The Gluvit is an epoxy product and should work well provided your surface is clean so there is no rust to bloom under the epoxy.
No problem, send up a boiler drawing when you are ready.

Glenn Brooks
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Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by Glenn Brooks » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:44 pm

Thanks. Yes I’ve seen a lot of this inspection plate fab work in Alaska. And anerobic corrosion, particularly with stainless piping and exhaust systems, out in the Aleutians with commercial fishing and marine stuff, and the bush. Nobody has time for leaky tanks or piping systems that you can’t get into to repair or clean.

I looked more closely at the section that I cut out today. Corrosion and pitting not so bad around the edges. Mostly in the center. Iam thinking that pockets of trapped water behind the sealant and the skin of the tank might be a major contributing cause- so possibly anaerobic or acidification from the dissimilar materials. Anyway something to avoid with the new repair.

Iam going to do a deep clean on the now exposed surfaces before I put it all back together again. Pressure wash, biodegradable wash, Ospho etch maybe. At least a light etch. I usually have good results using Phosporic acid as a solvent. Let it sit for 15-20 minutes, then scrub and wipe it off. What ever is left makes a nice undercoat. Plenty of flash rusting dried around the sides and top. Now debating whether to go the Full Monty and buy some epoxy paint to coat everything. Don’t really want to drag this out for another week...

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

Glenn Brooks
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by Glenn Brooks » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:49 pm

More progress on the tender repair. Triple measured the dimensions to be cut out of the bottom. Then set up some plasma cutting jigs and zip-zip-zip. All done. Big hole in the center.

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One thing is for sure. The Plasma cutter pays for itself every time I use it!

Last pic is just a comment on cleaning mill scale off cold rolled steel. This is a piece of 10 ga sheet metal. Did not want to waste time grinding it down. So tried a white vinegar wash- wrapped in a towel and sealed up overnight with a bit of plastic tarp. Never used this method before, so thought I would give it a go.

Worked great. Today, scrubbed the oxidation with a green kitchen sponge and took off 95% of the scale. However a few bits and swirls remained. So distributed the existing vinegar with the sponge and wrapped it up for another night. I think tomorrow the patch plate will be perfectly clean, ready for rust proofing and paint.
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Progress!

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

rkcarguy
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Location: Wa State

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by rkcarguy » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:54 am

Looks good, and it appears your paint job went unscathed through the plasma cutting.

Glenn Brooks
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Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by Glenn Brooks » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:44 pm

Yep, almost. One spot is scorched where the heat snuck under the board. But it’s on the bottom, anyway.

Actually the tender is powder coated... holding up reasonably well. Although starting to scratch on the side and top, from being turned over to many times.
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2197
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by Glenn Brooks » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:47 am

Short followup on the vinegar - scale removal. Here’s two pics of the final result. Iam a little disappointed the vinegar didn’t get all the remaining scale off the sheet metal. But perhaps the amount soaked into the towel was mostly neutralized by the second day. Didn’t smell the vinegary smell anyway.

The plate had a covering of gray residue, visible in the pic, below. I hit it quickly with a flap wheel and it all cleaned off perfectly- down to bare shinny metal. So good to go for waterproofing with Glovit, probably tomorrow.
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The inside of the tank cleaned up really well with a quick wash with shop solvent - Spray& Wash grocery store cleaner. So ready to weld the frame in place and drill and tap for machine screws to hold the new and bottom in place.
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Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2197
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by Glenn Brooks » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:37 pm

My boy just sent me some of last years photos. Here’s why I like park gauge! Very cool scale. Large enuf to play with, small enuf to manage.

Glenn
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Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2197
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by Glenn Brooks » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:26 pm

Welded the frame into the bottom of the tender yesterday and ground the welds smooth, plus added first undercoat.

I’ve settled on Sherwin Williams Metal etch undercoat (2 layers) and two top coats of S&W semi gloss as my shop standard for exterior paint coatings. Their undercoat seems tough as nails. Also, so far has provided an excellent barrier coat against water intrusion, damage from chipping, and rust prevention.

Still trying to decide how to finish the inside top of the tender. Researching water tank coatings on the internet led me to discover the municipal water supply industry treats submerged tank surfaces differently from the top - open air- portion of water storage tanks. They call this the area, the water vapor surface, as it is usually exposed to air, but also is a high humidity environment. So industry treats this area with a different paint formulation - usually some form of high humidity zinc rich multi layer epoxy covering. Regular water based, enamel and urethane reportedly have shorter life spans in this application. So, looking for a quart of “water vapor epoxy” paint, to experiment with. The zinc in the coating acts as an anode to neutralize galvanic corrosion of the tank structure. Very interesting, but way complicated for my small repair job.

However, Still plan on coating the bottom and spots on the side with Gluvit - an underwater service aluminium infused epoxy - mostly because I have a free can available, and it’s supposed to be an imperious barrier coat to water. So good to go...

Glenn
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Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2197
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by Glenn Brooks » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:56 pm

Bit of a set back today. Broke two taps and a drill bit trying to drill and tap the 1/4” threaded holes around the edge of the tank. (3” spacing all around)

Bits and pieces of the taps and drill are wedged in three holes - and need to come out somehow, so my existing bolt pattern will work.

The usual tricks didn’t work this time. Nor did the loudest criticism I could throw at this miserable recalcitrant beast...

Iam thinking maybe burn these broken ends out with my plasma cutter- rewelding shut, and drilling again. Sloppy and likely to mess the frame up more than the fix...


Any suggestions?
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

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NP317
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Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by NP317 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:30 pm

"Any suggestions?"

Wine. Red. A bottle of...
RussN

rkcarguy
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Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by rkcarguy » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:24 am

Happen to have a solid carbide drill bit the right size, or even a size that will allow you to upsize the bolt to 5/16"?
Also, what types and brand of tap are you using?

Glenn Brooks
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Re: Woodinville Shops

Post by Glenn Brooks » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:57 pm

Finally removed the broken taps and per Ryan’s suggestion, redrilled and tapped a few damaged holes with 5/16” bolts.

I guess the lesson here is don’t use cheap DIY hardware store garbage taps from Irwin/Hanson to actually tap holes. Maybe they are OK for cleaning up existing threads, but nothing more involved than that. Also the 5/16” tap is significantly strong than 1/4 x20” tap. Clearly takes the rotating forces better than the smaller diameter tap. I may consider upgrading to using 5/16 from now on, rather than 1/4” bolts, wherever the larger size of part/fixture will allow.

Actually the brittle, low grade, broken tap shanks proved to be the reason I was able to extract them. Just beat the daylight out of them with a metal punch and big hammer. The tap pieces in the hole easily fractured into small pieces, and I drove the whole mess out the bottom with a nail set punch. The only one that didn’t respond to this gentle persuasion was the one high grade Machinist tap. It broke in a welded spot, I think because of hitting a pocket of tempered steel from spot welding in the frame. It’s still embedded in its own little time capsule in the steel frame member - welded in place for ever now.

Last step was to seal the inside of the tank, and all the new metal surfaces, with two coats of Gluvit - an impervious epoxy coating infused with long fiber aluminum powder. Then bolt the inspection plates home with a sealant coating of Dolphinite marine bedding compound. All is right and good to go, except:

Still leaks in the front right corner where the original solder seam sealer melted out during a previous repair. So planning on heating with the acetylene tanks and resoldering the three bits of leaky seam. Then finally, this will be done.
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Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

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