12" working railroad

Discuss park gauge trains and large scale miniature railways having track gauges from 8" to 24" gauge and designed at scales of 2" to the foot or greater - whether modeled for personal use, or purpose built for amusement park operation or private railroading.

Moderators: Glenn Brooks, Harold_V

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Topics may include: antique park gauge train restoration, preservation, and history; building new grand scale equipment from scratch; large scale miniature railway construction, maintenance, and safe operation; fallen flags; track, gauge, and equipment standards; grand scale vendor offerings; and, compiling an on-line motive power roster.
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1921
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: 12" working railroad

Post by Glenn Brooks » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:38 pm

Ryan, yep, I like your design. I’ll go lay out the general dimensions up against the existing frame on Saturday. The only change I might consider is using a different bearing. Something that allows the axles and individual wheels to float in the side frames, maybe with springs. Need to research what the big boys did with this design.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

rkcarguy
Posts: 1376
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:00 pm

I think you'll find the design very similar, the springs go in the same place and work the same as the real thing. Because we're using plates not castings, things are held together a little different. It's hard to explain without showing you what I've done.
I found some google images of AAR powered trucks being rebuilt at a factory, it was great to understand how they go together.

rkcarguy
Posts: 1376
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:42 pm

sliding pillow blocks.jpg
I'm probably going to use these on my "Hustler" build. If you decide to go with the 0-4-0 diesel with the connecting rod and want to have the option of variable gauge, we could use these and have your side plates bolt together using pipes to space them. Then you could insert different gage wheel sets if you wanted, just change the length of the pipes. 1/2" Schedule 80 works very nice to drill and tap 5/8 threads.

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1921
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: 12" working railroad

Post by Glenn Brooks » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:18 am

Ryan, these journals look very interesting. What does the little top (bottom) box frame thingy do? Set screw guide maybe? Probably that could be machined off if not needed. These would simply the fabrication cycle somewhat - wouldn’t have to make journal boxes. I assume they are cast iron, which is perfect to eliminate galling with the steel frame.

Do you have a web page I could look at for sizing and more detail?

I been researching Type A trucks with Dr. Google this evening. Yes indeed, the assembly drawings I found are very informative - there is lots of detail hidden by side view photos. I’ll try to attach a couple of images I found that clarified a lot of detail for me.

The forum software cNt handle the two most important drawings. So,here are the links:

http://ibls.org/files/2016/DieselTrucks ... Trucks.TIF

And, this detailed EMD parts list:

http://ibls.org/files/2016/DieselTrucks ... C-1500.pdf


I think I’ll go with your Type A truck design - with a few modifications for equalized suspension. I just realized I can make the truck frame for 15” gauge and simply turn axles to 12” gauge and fill the 1.5” extra space on both sides with spacers - similar to what you just mentioned. With alight press fit, and mounting the wheels with a key way, would be easy enuf to regauge to 15” ga by reversing the spacers, or just replace the axles. No need to rebuild the frame, it will be permanently constructed at the wider gauge.

Also thinking of using 24 V traction motors on each axle. Or possibly follow your design with hydraulics.

The Loco body is already oversized for 12” ga, so wider trucks would fit underneath nicely.

The other design change would be to make 4 equalizer bars per prototypical practice, and add coil spring suspension between the equalizer bars and the main side frame. This would mean cutting off the equalizer bars at the top of the arch on each end, rather than extending the ends down around the axles as shown in your initial drawing.

And adding brakes.

I am thinking of forming a 15” ga working RR with a local veterans group so if that moves ahead, I would donate the yard goat as a road switcher. Hence building the trucks for the heavier duty application and wider gauge would be the best design.

Anyway, lot to think about re materials sizing and dimensions for a larger gauge frame, drive system etc. I’ll find a day when I can drive up to discuss in person, and bring you the existing frame sets.

Thanks
Glenn
Attachments
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Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

rkcarguy
Posts: 1376
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:43 am

You can see in my drawing, that I am mounting the pillow blocks to the equalizer bar, and having it slide up and down on the side of the frame. I'm going to weld bolts to the inside plate and then put castle nuts on the outside just like the picture there. Then up top above the bearings I'll be welding a bolt in there and cutting off the head so it doesn't show. The plate behind has slots, so there will be about an inch of up and down movement plus the trucks will pivot on bearings just like BDD did on his F7. Yes it would be easy enough to mount the pillow blocks shown to a one piece side plate and just make a thinner equalizer bar for looks and/or cut the ends off.
There are coil springs under those rounded lumps, I plan to put mine there too.
The pillow block is known as a "UCT" by many manufacturers, looks like they range from 1/2" on up in axle size.
For a Hustler type truck I think the spring could be dropped into that pocket, but for an AAR type truck you'd probably want to cut that part off.

rkcarguy
Posts: 1376
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:57 am

https://www.amazon.com/Hub-City-Industr ... 2470955011

These look pretty good. I think if I was going to do mine again, I would turn the ends of axles down the 3/4" and use a smaller bearing. The shear on a 1" axle is massive, it's just over the longer span between the wheels where we need the extra meat.

Glenn Brooks
Posts: 1921
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: 12" working railroad

Post by Glenn Brooks » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:16 am

Ryan, thanks. My iPad died, so lost a bunch of edits. I just updated my last post with two links to design drawings and an Emd Type A parts list. These are both on IBLS site, although the parts list is hard to find there.

Yep, those blocks might be just the thing. At $11/ each much Cheaper than I expected.

I understand now how your drawing on page 14 will,be assembled. Didn’t get how the blocks would be wounded to the equalizer bar. Makes sense.

Thanks
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

rkcarguy
Posts: 1376
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:24 am

Cool drawing! Looks like those cut down UCT bearings would get you very close to the prototype look, even closer if you miter cut the tops off sloping down from the bearing on each side. If you decide to go that route you'll need to buy those bearings first so I can design around them regarding the slot size and width of the pocket.
My freight trucks are already 30#'s each and don't even have wheels springs or brakes yet, so I think 3/8 plate for the truck sides is plenty strong for a locomotive. My only concern would be if you'll build a ballast car that is going to see a couple tons we should probably go 1/2" plate and 1-1/4" axles.

rkcarguy
Posts: 1376
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:28 am

Also, being you'll be such a larger size, you'll have more room to work with for the sprockets and chain so you can fit more cross members(pipes) going from one side to the other. I have to notch my bolster for the chain to clear, and won't be able to weld in anything beyond a flat bar across the bottom.

rkcarguy
Posts: 1376
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:08 am

Not a whole lot to report, I played with some rattle can primers and found a red/brown color that's a good match for the GN brown on the riding car, and painted one end of the frame so I could install the coupler, eye bolt, and air fitting for good. It seems to apply well over the grey epoxy paint, and is easy to touch up, you don't see different levels of reflectivity in the paint if that makes sense.
When the new "equipment" arrived at work, a portion of it came crated in a crate with tongue and groove pine sides....assuming "Italian pine" because the machine was from Italy ooh fancy fancy lol! Saturday I took a chain saw to them and was able to grab enough of it to use for the decks of my future bulkhead flat cars. This leaves me only needing the lower profile members that go down each side, and I've got everything I need for their frames. Sadly it's going to get beat up with firewood use, but it is what it is, a train made to work, not a trailer queen.

rkcarguy
Posts: 1376
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:17 pm

A little interesting post about the bulkhead flat cars I want to model( I chose these because the sides have no "fish belly").

http://vanderheide.ca/blog/2014/09/04/a ... -flatcars/
ac2358.jpg

rkcarguy
Posts: 1376
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: 12" working railroad

Post by rkcarguy » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:34 pm

Pic of the end of the riding car. Air fitting, coupler, and safety chain eyes are installed for good. The other end has no coupler as it will be drawbar connected to the locomotive. Yes the frame is upside down, I won't be flipping the frame over until its got finished trucks on it.
Question for you guys, are push lock fittings and plastic tubing acceptable for the air brake lines, or should I go to the extra effort of running hard lines under my frames? My brakes will be "sprung on", and I'll apply air to release them so it would be safe in case of a line failure.
carend.jpg

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