Mesa Grande fire

Discuss park gauge trains and large scale miniature railways having track gauges from 8" to 24" gauge and designed at scales of 2" to the foot or greater - whether modeled for personal use, or purpose built for amusement park operation or private railroading.

Moderators: Glenn Brooks, Harold_V

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Topics may include: antique park gauge train restoration, preservation, and history; building new grand scale equipment from scratch; large scale miniature railway construction, maintenance, and safe operation; fallen flags; track, gauge, and equipment standards; grand scale vendor offerings; and, compiling an on-line motive power roster.
Sandiapaul
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Mesa Grande fire

Post by Sandiapaul »

Surprised this hasn't shown up here. The Mesa Grande suffered some pretty bad losses due to fire. Other parts, thankfully, remain unscathed.
The only link I can find is on facebook in Backyard Railroading. I've admired that place for years from articles in LS. Lets hope they can recover.

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=369 ... 3675088905
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Harlock
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Re: Mesa Grande fire

Post by Harlock »

I haven't been posting much here lately, have not had much time. The only place I posted it was there, last night after I got home from the property. Here is a link to the complete post, the link above was to one photo. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1912802 ... 3675088905

Based on a quick test, you should be able to view that public post and associated photos without needing an account.

Best,

-Mike
Live Steam Photography and more - gallery.mikemassee.com
Product Development and E-Commerce, Allen Models of Nevada
Glenn Brooks
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Re: Mesa Grande fire

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Thanks Mike, Iam sure the members will appreciate your coverage of the fire. Photos themselves tell a harrowing, and hard won battle with the flames. I am thankful no one was injured and that you saved a significant portion of your infrastructure and equipment.

I do have a question about the Flora in your area. Do any of the Joshua trees, still showing some green, have a chance of regenerating growth again, next spring?

And wondering how your desert ground cover generally recovers after wildfire, if it does...

Thanks much for posting.
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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Harlock
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Re: Mesa Grande fire

Post by Harlock »

We'll see on the Joshua trees. Based on what I saw at another fire nearby, they don't fare very well in fire. The sage brush will grow back eventually but we won't get the big Joshua trees back in our lifetime, they grow so slowly.
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Glenn Brooks
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Re: Mesa Grande fire

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Sad to hear. The wildfires in eastern Washington, east slope of the Cascades sometimes come back in a year or two with lots of wildflowers and new ground cover. Helps establish a new growing environment. The burned ash sometimes improves the soil. But, never the same... unfortunately.
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
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Harlock
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Re: Mesa Grande fire

Post by Harlock »

I posted a copy of the photos on my website:
http://gallery.mikemassee.com/-/galleri ... -fire-2020
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NP317
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Re: Mesa Grande fire

Post by NP317 »

That is really sad to see the level of destruction.
Hoping for a good recovery, which will take much work.
RussN
Pontiacguy1
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Re: Mesa Grande fire

Post by Pontiacguy1 »

hate to see all the destruction of railroads out there, but trying to look on the bright side: at least you have something left that you can fix. bridges are a pain, but they can be rebuilt. if the fire had destroyed all the rolling stock, roundhouse, and locomotives, that could easily have spelled the end for the railroad. would hate to see that. such a unique size and layout.

I just wonder why 9" gauge never became a thing. this is the only one I've ever heard of. I mean, take 36 and divide by 4... 1/4" scale with the correct gauge. probably just too many more 7.5" tracks around.
rkcarguy
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Re: Mesa Grande fire

Post by rkcarguy »

Looks like the switcher and the one hopper barely escaped the fire inside the tunnel!
It's sad to see the damage indeed, looks like they have a good volunteer base to help and will rebuild quickly?
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Harlock
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Re: Mesa Grande fire

Post by Harlock »

Pontiacguy1 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:46 am I just wonder why 9" gauge never became a thing. this is the only one I've ever heard of. I mean, take 36 and divide by 4... 1/4" scale with the correct gauge. probably just too many more 7.5" tracks around.
By the time Harry Pulaski had come along with the beginnings of the Mesa, 7.25" and 7.5" gauge had already cemented itself as the next big thing, and there was much less focus on narrow gauge at the time in the hobby, looking at historical images and plans offerings. Harry was kind of an outlier that did his own thing. He was a cabinet maker who made all of his own patterns.

Harry built the X-1 diesel in 1956, the same year the real one made its debut on the SP Narrow Gauge in the Owens Valley. LALS was founded that year and other clubs were starting to run 7.5" gauge out this way. There was also a matter of transportability, as the average person at the time did not have access to the kinds of tow vehicles and trailers that we do now. Looking at old slides, you see a lot of engines being loaded into station wagons and basic 1 axle flatbed trailers, and less people had a second vehicle aside from the family sedan or wagon for hauling.

That being said, I wished it had caught on because it is a far better choice for narrow gauge. The way we use 9" gauge, We have correct 3" scale rail and wheel profiles, so we're not making narrow gauge engines that run on smaller standard gauge wheel and track profile like we are in 7.5". There is much more stability overall. On top of that, the de-facto IBLS draft standards for 7.5" gauge favor scale too much over stability - the flange depth is too shallow and the inside radius of the tread to flange interface is too sharp, allowing the flange to come in contact with the rail head too much. The RMI-25 profile attempted to address those items but people are exceedingly recalcitrant to change. 9" gauge is a way to start over and do it right.

I would love to see a small network of 9" gauge, 3" scale tracks with interchangeable standards. The IBLS 3" scale standard is sufficient for these. It is such a pleasure to run the Mesa engines at that gauge and scale, and everyone who has ever had a ride or pulled the throttle has agreed. It's totally different from 7.5" gauge operations. It feels far more realistic, without being a crazy increase in size.

-M
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Product Development and E-Commerce, Allen Models of Nevada
Glenn Brooks
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Re: Mesa Grande fire

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Mike,

Well said. I enjoy 12” gauge much the same way. Much greater stability and power in about the same design envelope. But 12” gauge never had a chance, as the first 12 5/8” ga train sets were designed for commercial theme park use - by the Cagney brothers actually - and after producing about a dozen locomotives, quickly realized 15” gauge was far superior for passenger hauling capacity. And sold 3,000 train sets around the world. Cementing 15” gauge as a viable standard. The Cagney’s found two people, particularly a parent and child, can sit side by side in a 15” gauge coach, hold on to each other, and enjoy the ride. Particularly a mom or dad and a toddler. Hence the larger gauge predominates.

This basic principle still governs miniature train concessions today, and live steam ridership. Families that sit side by side enjoy the ride more. The parents may be the decisions makers, but the kids are the influencers. The kids decide what is the most fun to do, and the parents love to ride with them.

The interesting thing about 9” ga, and 10”, 12”, 14 “ or 15” gauge is: you can build at 2.5 scale very easily and still have a well proportioned locomotive or riding car. Or, for a few inches of increase in gauge, you can go up to 5” or 6” scale if you wish, and create a very large and robust working railroad.

Alas we have 7.x” gauge as a widely adopted standard. But 9”, 10” and up are only a couple of inches difference in width of each rail. Something to think about, if your club is considering expanding in a new direction - build out a Grand
Scale Pike and enjoy!

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Pontiacguy1
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Re: Mesa Grande fire

Post by Pontiacguy1 »

One problem is going to be availability of rail. From what I've heard, 8 pound rail is pretty rare, and only one place in the world still rolls anything like it, and it's expensive. 12 pound rail is a little bit bigger, heavier, out of scale, and of course it isn't just laying around all over the place either. If you had a good source for rails that were somewhat affordable, that would be a big plus. Then people would just have to start building in that gauge. That's difficult when you live so far away from the only known track.
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