Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Discuss park gauge trains and large scale miniature railways having track gauges from 8" to 24" gauge and designed at scales of 2" to the foot or greater - whether modeled for personal use, or purpose built for amusement park operation or private railroading.

Moderators: Glenn Brooks, Harold_V

Forum rules
Topics may include: antique park gauge train restoration, preservation, and history; building new grand scale equipment from scratch; large scale miniature railway construction, maintenance, and safe operation; fallen flags; track, gauge, and equipment standards; grand scale vendor offerings; and, compiling an on-line motive power roster.
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2929
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Correction: somehow initially, I completely confused Ben Hammer with ‘Bob Hammond’. Ben Hammer is The master builder who created these two locomotives, and an earlier, unidentified diesel outline scale model. Ben lived most of his working life in Southern California, moving to Sun City West, an outlying community near Pheonix, after retirement. He built his now ‘missing’ engine #2 in his garage possibly in the Potereo area east of San Diego , then moved to Arizona where he constructed his engine #3- now on display in the MLS miniature train museum.

Wanting to know if anybody remembers BEN HAMMER, or his wife Edna? I found some old personal family papers and correspondence amongst the drawings i purchased and would like to pass them along to relatives who may still be living.

Thanks much,

Glenn

Original Post, (with corrections)

Visited Adobe Mountain train Museum in Phoenix area, last week. Learned they are looking for info or status on Ben Hammer’s loco #2, a 15” gauge, 1880’s era, 4-4-0, Ben built in the late 60’s or 70’s in Southern California. Ben sold #2 to persons unknown, then moved to the Phoenix area and started working on Loco #3, which he donated to the MLS Museum shortly before passing away 15 years ago.

The Museum would like to locate engine #2, and ascertain its status.

Both are reported to be identical builds, and very similar in appearance and characteristics to the Riverside and
Great Northern 4-4-0’s still operating in the Wisconsin Dells area. In fact, some of Ben’s patterns are stamped Sandley locomotive works.

Here are some photos of loco #3 I took last week in the Museum building. Wonderful brass work, including whistle and bell all came from patterns Bob had specially made, and cast at a foundry in Mexico that specialized in high quality yellow metal artesianship.

572E517A-0925-471A-BAFA-C8E5F81D104B.jpeg
FA57BEEB-B9DD-447E-A45F-DD3506033B3A.jpeg
CAD453EA-5A50-4847-8A99-183E667E2A95.jpeg
965E7E5E-4EC8-4A2F-A782-1D03BE995E19.jpeg
06B1EA0D-29E8-4D37-AFE7-C3BC98495575.jpeg
C6453887-D17D-420F-8CF6-11B0EF4DEEA7.jpeg
1617C751-9122-459D-B9ED-C9F49CD7680E.jpeg
A0D6F976-1045-4FC2-A426-2B662AD80F9E.jpeg
7EBEC101-4958-41DA-89BC-F3A4021755C2.jpeg
FD05DA8A-56CD-46E1-8EB5-FF1F12AFB26F.jpeg
F8491C05-22DE-4A11-91F5-1C74C8102DFB.jpeg
The three photos below are pics of 1970’s era glossy prints, showing the long lost engine #2.
A48A5A1E-7F0D-48CA-8F14-AC52B5C689C5.jpeg
A1F5C040-4162-4F07-B489-1085ADDCA121.jpeg
F8491C05-22DE-4A11-91F5-1C74C8102DFB.jpeg
If anyone has knowledge of the lost loco, or the location shown in the photos, or even has seen it somewhere in the past, please let me know.

Thanks much,
Glenn
Attachments
6CD5FC2F-2D45-49E6-81B2-FB2C0BEFB8C0.jpeg
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2929
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Bob Hammond 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Should have mentioned, I acquired the complete set of patterns, parts draws, and construction drawings for this loco. Will be preserving them and cataloging, duplicating, and building a searchable document index (hundred or more sketches, drawings, and blueprints) to organize the material and make available to those who may want to build the loco in Grand Scale.
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
User avatar
ALCOSTEAM
Posts: 761
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 9:20 am
Location: illinois

Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by ALCOSTEAM »

The air compressor is certainly a Sandley unit and appears identical to the one we have. I had figured the plexiglass being used as valve covers was someone just using what they had to make due but possibly not.

So were these operating engines or just static displays ?
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2929
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Alcosteam, Yes, they were built as operating, coal fired engines. #2 was sold into private ownership sometime after being compwleted in 1968. And hasn’t been seen for many years. So don’t know if it is currently operational or not. #3, currently on display at Adobe Mountain, was built for steam operation also, with a code boiler, etc. However, Ben passed away before completing, so it is currently an unfinished, static display. It still needs a Johnson bar and some backhead plumbing, for example.

A spare finished air compressor was included in the miscellaneous parts I acquired. It appears to have a metal valve cover, but I didn’t look at it closely, when packing everything up. Mike Decker might know more. He worked at Standley for some years during the late 60’s. Not sure if he is on this forum, but I could ask him and report back, if he doesn’t comment...

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
User avatar
ALCOSTEAM
Posts: 761
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 9:20 am
Location: illinois

Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by ALCOSTEAM »

Yes I have talked with Mike... he goes by Erskine Tramway here on the site. You didn't happen to get the actual air compressor drawings by chance? Ours is missing pieces. I started making some new pieces and then it got put on the back burner.
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2929
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Yes, I think I do have several compressor drawing sheets. One or two possibly. Don’t have the actual air compressor yet to verify, - still enroute - but they appear to be the correct drawing.

What parts are you missing?

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
User avatar
Erskine Tramway
Posts: 390
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:13 pm
Location: South Dakota
Contact:

Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Erskine Tramway »

Hi Glenn...

I had them apart often enough, that I know what all the parts look like :D Here are scans of my drawing of the Duplex air pump, with the parts called out. My scanner isn't big enough to do a whole 'C' size drawing at once. My drawing is the newer style air end, than the pumps you have, with the built-in check valves, and Norman designed a smaller oil pump than the ratchet pump on #3, but I don't have a print of that.

Mike
Attachments
Duplex pump 1.jpg
Duplex pump 2.jpg
Duplex pump 3.jpg
Duplex pump 4.jpg
Former Locomotive Engineer and Designer, Sandley Light Railway Equipment Works, Inc. and Riverside & Great Northern Railway 1962-77
BN RR Locomotive Engineer 1977-2014, Retired
User avatar
ALCOSTEAM
Posts: 761
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 9:20 am
Location: illinois

Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by ALCOSTEAM »

Mike,, did you ever figure out where or what the small check valves came from or were out of. I knew you mentioned an automotive application. I have been to several old mom and pop type auto parts places and no one has a clue.. just yesterday I showed a guy who has owned / been in the auto parts business for 67 years and he likewise (might be a touch of oldtimers) could not place the check valve as anything he had ever seen.
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2929
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Thanks Mike. The drawings I have are different looking. Wondering if Ben Hammer made these himself, or if they were an earlier version of Sandley’s Work. (See attached)

Also, looks like only the last four of your set of 19 actually got posted to the thread. Any chance you could separately repost 1-15 ?

Here is what I have.

Glenn
Attachments
80712B89-D8E1-4CCC-BEAB-C204BE73F39A.jpeg
20211A77-7691-41D4-8D3D-85B359822BC8.jpeg
FBE6893C-1C34-4F02-81C3-EDDD4A63D3FC.jpeg
67AB352D-7FC9-49D1-9A50-31C71A0FC335.jpeg
4195B791-9447-43AD-BEFA-2050C0AD151B.jpeg
7DACB55A-D1CE-49AD-8F0D-427EC4D678D7.jpeg
0C02C7C7-BCEB-447B-BEDD-511DCE341A91.jpeg
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2929
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks »

More Questions for Mike and All:

In further studying of the Sandley air pump drawings, posted above, and my existing pump, I don’t see any obvious inlet or outlet for steam. Wondering where this is?

Also, on the drawings and loco #3, I see a small brass oil pump mounted on the forward side of the air pump. Apparently steam from the big steam pump passes through a copper tube exiting the top of one of the lower cylinders, and then charges a smaller round brass cylinder, down at the front bottom of the assembly. The small brass cylinder then pushes a rod that activates the oil pump.

3CFA8E78-9361-4B9B-89F9-12A9CA0E09E0.jpeg
BB36CF90-11E9-4370-A96C-AC6DB8528C33.jpeg
14C19AA5-492A-4998-988A-DE31F0BCF8D0.jpeg

However, the plumbing on the loco air pump is different than the plumbing that exists on my pump, pictured below. On the loco, an additional copper tube exits each Cylinder, just above a small round brass filter of some sort, then disappears back behind the twin cylinders. Yet my pump, pictured below, has a different copper pipe plumbing arrangement. The top and bottom of the two cylinders are joined by tubing formed into in an H arrangement, leading to one apparent outlet.

At first glance, I don’t see a port, or fitting, to drive the Oiler, or any schematic to drive airbrakes? Or steam brakes?
34516318-9815-41D4-B4A2-5C27F92240D1.jpeg
52107818-DD80-419B-9772-335A1411E7DA.jpeg
297EEECC-BDF1-433B-8103-A03DF01C9DAA.jpeg
Any idea how exhaust air should be plumbed to my existing pump and Oiler, or (I assume) the jam brakes?

I guess what I really need is an overall plumbing diagram - which apparently I don’t have...

Also, can anyone confirm the purpose do the four round, brass filter things serve, mounted at the top and bottom of the cylinders? Iam assuming these are four inlet filters, for a double acting pump.?

Thanks much,
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
User avatar
Erskine Tramway
Posts: 390
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:13 pm
Location: South Dakota
Contact:

Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Erskine Tramway »

Hi Glenn...folks.

Off the top, apparently the number on a photo or drawing is just the sequence number for the discussion thread. I only posted four drawings. Also...those aren't our drawings. even if they were made before I became the Draftsman, Norman would have put the Company name on them somewhere. It looks to me like Ben took the pump apart and drew it himself.

As far as the check valves go, the actual name is called out on drawing MP-332, but I don't have a print of that at home. If somebody at The Dells could find it in my drawing drawers, it would say. All I know for sure, is that we had a whole Mason Jar full of them, and Norman told me that they were out of a fuel pump. They were just a spring-loaded disk, inside a sheet metal case. Some of them had fibre looking disks, and some looked like Teflon. Every couple years, they would get full of oil and such, and I'd change them out. It's probable they could have been cleaned, but we had so many, we just threw the old ones away. The brass screens on Glenn's pump are the intake check bodies, the output checks were in a pipe assembly on the back side of the pump.

The reason you can't see how the pump on #3 is piped, is because it isn't. On top of that, it looks like the head is on backwards. The Exhaust steam comes our of a port in the center of the head, but the Inlet is offset to the right of centerline. The steam goes in the front of the head and the exhaust goes out the back side. Here's a picture I took in 1962 of the pump on R&GN Ry. #127, the little valve body with the diaphragm on top is the Governor. I later designed a Westinghouse-style top section for the one on #128, so that it worked like the big ones. And, the lubricator is different from Ben's, and probably different from the one on the #128 :lol: We were lucky if both sides of an engine were the same.

Now...the lubricator. It looks like whoever put the pump together on #3, tapped a couple holes in the center casting to to get air pressure to run the lubricator...and something else behind the pump. I can't see where the other line goes. On the #127's lubricator, I don't remember how that one worked, there might be a brass pump cylinder, just to the right of the reservoir. That could be where that copper pipe coming out of the right cylinder, and curving below the oil reservoir, goes. I only ran that engine for a couple seasons, before we sold it to Elliott Donnelley for Quincy, Ill., and that was over 55 years ago. My memory's good, but it ain't that good. It wasn't something I needed to remember. The one on #3, the vertical cylinder looks like a single acting, spring return, air cylinder, that just pulls down on the lubricator pump ratchet handle every time the air pump makes an up stroke. Norman designed a smaller oil pump that bolted to the bottom cross member on the #128's pump, with a reservoir similar to the #127's.

OK, Now...Where does the air go after it comes out of the pump? On our 'A' Class engines, which Norman always called 'Standard's' aka 'American Standard 4-4-0's', I don't remember where the air reservoir(s) are/were. I never had much to do with the Standards, and I didn't like them, so I had no reason to remember much about them. Anyway...the air comes out of the pump to one or more air reservoirs, and then to the Air Brakes and other air operated 'Appliances', fire door, bell ringer, sanders, etc. Here's a drawing of the piping for the #6-ET Air Brakes on the engines.

That's enough for this morning.

Mike
Attachments
img083.jpg
img489.jpg
img488.jpg
img491.jpg
img490.jpg
Former Locomotive Engineer and Designer, Sandley Light Railway Equipment Works, Inc. and Riverside & Great Northern Railway 1962-77
BN RR Locomotive Engineer 1977-2014, Retired
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2929
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Ben Hammer!!! 1/3rd scale 4-4-0

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Thanks Mike, very helpful. I’m headed back to Phoenix later in the year. I’ll take a day off and see if I can inspect number three more closely to see what’s going on. Quite possible number three doesn’t have much more to offer. Ban hammer never completed the engine before he passed away, so it’s possibile, the air pump is just there for looks.
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
Post Reply