New Guy: Where do I start?
New Guy: Where do I start?
Hi all,
Been a lurker for a while here, very interesting stuff on this board! I've been involved with live steam for a couple of years now, and have some experience running, maintaining, and rebuilding live steamers that belong to my club, or to friends.
Well, I've finally decided to take that step and build/buy my own. But where do I start? I've been drawing and making CAD models of various components for the past few months, pretty much just tinkering to find something simple that I'd like to do. My plan is to start small with something like a 3.5'' gauge 0-4-0 or the likes, and gain experience until I have the abilities and stick-with-it to build much larger live steamers.
Would you recommend designing and scratch building my own from the ground up, or just buying the drawings? Or would buying one whole be the best route to take? I have no machine shop, although I do have my own 3D printer.
Thanks much.
Been a lurker for a while here, very interesting stuff on this board! I've been involved with live steam for a couple of years now, and have some experience running, maintaining, and rebuilding live steamers that belong to my club, or to friends.
Well, I've finally decided to take that step and build/buy my own. But where do I start? I've been drawing and making CAD models of various components for the past few months, pretty much just tinkering to find something simple that I'd like to do. My plan is to start small with something like a 3.5'' gauge 0-4-0 or the likes, and gain experience until I have the abilities and stick-with-it to build much larger live steamers.
Would you recommend designing and scratch building my own from the ground up, or just buying the drawings? Or would buying one whole be the best route to take? I have no machine shop, although I do have my own 3D printer.
Thanks much.
-Sam
Boilermaker, Pipefitter, former Railroader
"Preserving the Past and Ensuring Our Future"
Boilermaker, Pipefitter, former Railroader
"Preserving the Past and Ensuring Our Future"
Re: New Guy: Where do I start?
In order to avoid unforseen gotchas as a beginner, it is a good idea to use a pre-existing set of plans, and 'wing it' later on when you gain more confidence and experience. The Kozo A3 is a good way to go because it hand-holds you through the entire machining process, step by step. It is one of the few books to do so. Once you have completed the project, you will have graduated from 'Kozo University" and will be able to make just about anything. You mentioned a 3.5" gauge 0-4-0 and that's exactly what it is. You can also just use the book as a reference for how to build parts for just about any engine. Joe Nelson's "So you want to build a live steam locomotive" is also another good reference.
For 7.5" gauge, the 0-4-0 Connor Beam Engine is an easy to build first project. His grandson Matt Irwin currently owns and sells plans made by David Phillips.
The Allen Models Fitchburg Northern is also a good, lower cost beginners project with smaller castings that can be handled more easily in smaller machines. (Disclaimer - I am Allen Models' webmaster)
-Mike
For 7.5" gauge, the 0-4-0 Connor Beam Engine is an easy to build first project. His grandson Matt Irwin currently owns and sells plans made by David Phillips.
The Allen Models Fitchburg Northern is also a good, lower cost beginners project with smaller castings that can be handled more easily in smaller machines. (Disclaimer - I am Allen Models' webmaster)
-Mike
Live Steam Photography and more - gallery.mikemassee.com
Product Development and E-Commerce, Allen Models of Nevada
Product Development and E-Commerce, Allen Models of Nevada
- backyardrails
- Posts: 231
- Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:08 pm
Re: New Guy: Where do I start?
I have a Raritan 0-4-0 and is a great runner in 3/4". Great little engine to build. Won't break the bank either.
Bernie
Bernie
Re: New Guy: Where do I start?
For a novice, stick with a proven design that has plans and preferably a book (or a series of articles). Also, look for something for which castings are available.
Take a look on discoverlivesteam.com and look at the sold pages. There's a sold page just for the smaller gauges.
http://www.discoverlivesteam.com/discov ... /index.htm
See if there's a design that interests you and see if it's something for which plans exist.
Look at the main locomotive page to see if there's anything for sale that fits your interests.
There's the A3 switcher, which has a whole book and needs almost no castings:
http://www.discoverlivesteam.com/books/ ... tcher.html
There's also Friends Models ( http://www.friendsmodels.com/ ). They have plans AND castings for a lot of different small-scale models (including the castings for the A3 switcher).
Without a lathe, you aren't going to be able to make much in the way of parts. You should first be looking at lathes. You can mill on a lathe, but it's not optimal. If you aren't going to get a lathe, you should probably stick with buying one rather than building.
You should post your location, because there are probably people near you that can help, and probably a local club.
Steve
Take a look on discoverlivesteam.com and look at the sold pages. There's a sold page just for the smaller gauges.
http://www.discoverlivesteam.com/discov ... /index.htm
See if there's a design that interests you and see if it's something for which plans exist.
Look at the main locomotive page to see if there's anything for sale that fits your interests.
There's the A3 switcher, which has a whole book and needs almost no castings:
http://www.discoverlivesteam.com/books/ ... tcher.html
There's also Friends Models ( http://www.friendsmodels.com/ ). They have plans AND castings for a lot of different small-scale models (including the castings for the A3 switcher).
Without a lathe, you aren't going to be able to make much in the way of parts. You should first be looking at lathes. You can mill on a lathe, but it's not optimal. If you aren't going to get a lathe, you should probably stick with buying one rather than building.
You should post your location, because there are probably people near you that can help, and probably a local club.
Steve
Re: New Guy: Where do I start?
Bernie the Raritan is a 2-4-0 and an excellent first locomotive.backyardrails wrote:I have a Raritan 0-4-0 and is a great runner in 3/4". Great little engine to build. Won't break the bank either.
Bernie
Great looking little model as well!
Keith
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- Posts: 161
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:27 pm
- Location: Henderson, NV
Re: New Guy: Where do I start?
I would recommend that you build something of the size that you want from the start. You will need at least a 10" lathe, and a milling machine of some type. Stay away from the 3in1 machines, they will drive you nuts using them.
I concur with Harloc, start with one of the Kozo A-3's. As an alternative I would recommend a Connor 0-4-0 beam engine, or 4-4 as they are simple to build, and no castings of cylinder blocks, or other specialty items, as most items are hardware store parts.
I concur with Harloc, start with one of the Kozo A-3's. As an alternative I would recommend a Connor 0-4-0 beam engine, or 4-4 as they are simple to build, and no castings of cylinder blocks, or other specialty items, as most items are hardware store parts.
E. Bartlett HTC(SW) USN Ret.
Member Firearms Engravers Guild of America (FEGA)
Nevada Southern Railway (Nevada State Railroad Museum)
Bridgeport Round Ram Mill
11" South Bend/10" Champion Blower & Forge Lathe (Franken Lathe)
12" Sebastian Lathe
everett.bartlett@yahoo.com
Member Firearms Engravers Guild of America (FEGA)
Nevada Southern Railway (Nevada State Railroad Museum)
Bridgeport Round Ram Mill
11" South Bend/10" Champion Blower & Forge Lathe (Franken Lathe)
12" Sebastian Lathe
everett.bartlett@yahoo.com
Re: New Guy: Where do I start?
Thanks for the advice and patience with my questions so far.
I'll be buying that book on the Kozo A3, since the fewer the castings, the better (Yikes! They are expensive) I think this will be the best option for me. I'm also exploring into small lathes, looking on Discover Live Steam. I seem to find a lower price for one is about $300-$400. Is it common to find a good, working lathe in the $300 range? Any recommendations to a particular model?
Stupid question: I have a Shop-Smith which can be used as a lathe (It is designed for wood, though) Could this be converted and used for metal working? Or should I just go all in on something I know will get the job done?
My hope is to get experience and a nice little runner without buying into a complete machine shop and scores of castings. I want to know what I'm getting into without making the investments required for large scale projects. Being a student, budget is what's keeping me from jumping into building 7.5 or 12 inch gauge locos that I am familiar with. Boy, this hobby can get expensive fast, but enjoying the fruits will be well worth it.
PS- I am expecting the Kozo A3 build to take about 18 months to two years. Is this a reasonable expectation for a novice (Granted, it depends on how much time I put into it, of course)
I'll be buying that book on the Kozo A3, since the fewer the castings, the better (Yikes! They are expensive) I think this will be the best option for me. I'm also exploring into small lathes, looking on Discover Live Steam. I seem to find a lower price for one is about $300-$400. Is it common to find a good, working lathe in the $300 range? Any recommendations to a particular model?
Stupid question: I have a Shop-Smith which can be used as a lathe (It is designed for wood, though) Could this be converted and used for metal working? Or should I just go all in on something I know will get the job done?
My hope is to get experience and a nice little runner without buying into a complete machine shop and scores of castings. I want to know what I'm getting into without making the investments required for large scale projects. Being a student, budget is what's keeping me from jumping into building 7.5 or 12 inch gauge locos that I am familiar with. Boy, this hobby can get expensive fast, but enjoying the fruits will be well worth it.
PS- I am expecting the Kozo A3 build to take about 18 months to two years. Is this a reasonable expectation for a novice (Granted, it depends on how much time I put into it, of course)
-Sam
Boilermaker, Pipefitter, former Railroader
"Preserving the Past and Ensuring Our Future"
Boilermaker, Pipefitter, former Railroader
"Preserving the Past and Ensuring Our Future"
Re: New Guy: Where do I start?
Another great engine to build that requires virtually no castings is the Little Engines Crabb I still offer the drive wheels for it and the blueprints and they are relatively inexpensive everything else on the locomotive is built from bar stock including the cylinders the side frames are very easily made or cut from plate steel no castings required several members on this forum have the crib and just love it to death it is a small grasshopper type engine that is traditionally Rod driven and not a beam engine lots of fun vertical boiler easy to build especially for a beginner working from bar stock plans for the engine or available through me at Little Engines as are the four Drive Wheels
- backyardrails
- Posts: 231
- Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:08 pm
Re: New Guy: Where do I start?
Hi Keith
I got carried away. Yes, it is a 2-4-0. My Bad.
Bernie
I got carried away. Yes, it is a 2-4-0. My Bad.
Bernie
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- Posts: 957
- Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 10:14 pm
- Location: St. Louis, MO
Re: New Guy: Where do I start?
Where in Missouri are you?
3.5" gauge is uncommon in these parts. I don't know of a 3.5" track in Missouri.
That being said, 4-3/4" is around.. Not much bigger, and still easily manageable for a Ford Focus or similar vehicle.
Are you in St. Louis by chance?
3.5" gauge is uncommon in these parts. I don't know of a 3.5" track in Missouri.
That being said, 4-3/4" is around.. Not much bigger, and still easily manageable for a Ford Focus or similar vehicle.
Are you in St. Louis by chance?
Re: New Guy: Where do I start?
Mike, Sent you a PM.
-Sam
Boilermaker, Pipefitter, former Railroader
"Preserving the Past and Ensuring Our Future"
Boilermaker, Pipefitter, former Railroader
"Preserving the Past and Ensuring Our Future"
Re: New Guy: Where do I start?
In that price range you are probably looking at a 7X14 lathe, which is too small for even a 3.5" gauge engine. Not enough rigidity and clearance. Rigidity the name of the game. To cut metal with metal, both pieces need a lot of mass to hold everything rigid and absorb vibration. There is also an issue with clearance above the bed for larger parts, as well as the size of stock you can fit through the spindle, and the length of the bed when turning axles between centers. Both will give you trouble when machining larger parts such as the drivers and cylinders.318J wrote:Thanks for the advice and patience with my questions so far.
I'll be buying that book on the Kozo A3, since the fewer the castings, the better (Yikes! They are expensive) I think this will be the best option for me. I'm also exploring into small lathes, looking on Discover Live Steam. I seem to find a lower price for one is about $300-$400. Is it common to find a good, working lathe in the $300 range? Any recommendations to a particular model?
For the Kozo A3, I would recommend the next size up, a 9X20 lathe. When I was starting on the smaller scales I had this one: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=531&PMCTLG=00 You can sometimes find these used for about half the price.
For any 7.5" gauge engine, I would recommend a 12X24 or 12X36 lathe.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-x-24 ... rce=direct
This lathe will allow you to turn drivers and cylinders without a problem for most reasonable sized 7.5" gauge projects.
Just remember, the machine itself is probably half the cost. You'll spend the same amount again buying tooling and accessories for the lathe. If you can find a used one that comes with a lot of tooling, that is a help. The main issue is getting one in good condition that has been taken care of.
Same advice goes for milling machines. After the first few pages of the A3, you will need a mill, starting with the slots on the journal boxes.
The first problem with smaller table top mills is vertical clearance. Lets say you have a vice on the table, and then you have a drill chuck on the head, and a large drill bit. Suddenly you don't have enough height to put that drill chuck in, the head won't raise high enough on the column.
The next problem is table travel. The mill table moves back and forth and front to back (X and Y axes, respectively) underneath the mill head, which remains fixed. lets say the mill has a 7" X-travel, and your locomotive side frames are 8 or 10" long. Suddenly you can't machine all the features in relation to each other in one go, you have to carefully move the frame over to do the far end, after re-aligning your work-piece. The same problem can come up with Y travel as well.
The other piece of important advice when buying small bench top mills is always get one with a square column and not a round column. When you move the head up and down on the round column, it can rotate and you will lose your position. An example is when you need to start a hole with a center drill, then raise the head to allow clearance for a larger drill bit, or remove the chuck, lower the head and put an endmill into a collet to then make a milling pass. (the endmill in the collet uses a fraction of the vertical space that a drill bit in a chuck does)
The head moving up and down on the column is a substitute for the work table moving up and down on a full size knee mill.
The mill I have now is a compromise. I had a small harbor freight mini mill, which was too small, then a full sized bridgeport style knee mill, then I downsized to this Precision Matthews square column bench top mill due to space and clearance issues in my current garage: http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-932M.html
I am quite happy with it.
The shopsmith is a Wood lathe ONLY. There are no provisions for turning metal on it, although I see some people have tried to modify it to turn small pieces of metal. It will not work for the vast majority of the parts you need to make.318J wrote:Stupid question: I have a Shop-Smith which can be used as a lathe (It is designed for wood, though) Could this be converted and used for metal working? Or should I just go all in on something I know will get the job done?
The A3 has only four required castings, the driver wheels, which can be bought from John K. of Friend's Models. He also has cylinders that you can optionally purchase if you do not wish to fabricate them entirely.318J wrote:My hope is to get experience and a nice little runner without buying into a complete machine shop and scores of castings. I want to know what I'm getting into without making the investments required for large scale projects. Being a student, budget is what's keeping me from jumping into building 7.5 or 12 inch gauge locos that I am familiar with. Boy, this hobby can get expensive fast, but enjoying the fruits will be well worth it.
The Conner beam engine has no castings.
Another cost to factor in is measuring instruments. Dial calipers, micrometer, 6 inch rule, height gauge (you will need one starting with the A3 tender frame sides) depth mics, machinist squares and set-up blocks, for starters.
And taps and dies and collets and endmills, drillbits of all kinds.
To ease the pain, you can buy as go you, although it will slow you down in the beginning.
It was years before I could finally stop buying things every week. some swap meet and estate sales helped that out immensely without paying full price.
Plan on 2-5 years unless you can work on it a lot. It's about the journey!318J wrote:PS- I am expecting the Kozo A3 build to take about 18 months to two years. Is this a reasonable expectation for a novice (Granted, it depends on how much time I put into it, of course)
Live Steam Photography and more - gallery.mikemassee.com
Product Development and E-Commerce, Allen Models of Nevada
Product Development and E-Commerce, Allen Models of Nevada