Superelevation techniques

[johnpenn74]

Fellow railroaders,
So this past weekend I was at MSLS spring meet. While doing some spot corrections on the track the topic of superelevation came up.
Up till now I have been using a graduated plumbers level and rising the rail 1/8 to 3/16 rail height distance on 60 - 50' radius.

Some members in the club feel it is unnecessary and all track should be level in all locations. please share some opinions, accounts, experiences of what you think and what you have tried.

JP

[makinsmoke]

Hi John!
The full size railroads did it.

I suspect as speed increases it helps a great deal.

We are super elevating the C&IG as you are where we are rebuilding down to base. If anything it looks great!

My humble opinion is it is more important in our scales due to the height of full sized riders raising the center of gravity. You can feel the tendency of the motion around a curve pushing you ever so slightly to the outside on flat track moreso than super elevated.

Just my two cents.

And it really is no extra work to do it.

[NP317]

During the Train Mountain 2015 Triennial, the newest track coming down grade from the north end to Aspen Grove Loop was not super elevated, and in fact felt like it was slightly negatively banked. It felt like I needed to lean into the curves!

Even with the high quality of the steel rails on plastic ties, this was NOT a good feeling with our tall loaded trains, a previously noted.
Was I the only operator to feel this way about that new track?
I much prefer some super elevation.
~RN

[Tom Miller]

I superelevate all the curves on my RR. The train glides into the curve and the superelevation lets me carry more speed into the curve and feels more comfortable. I just tape a piece of 1/8 thick material to one end of a common level.
Tom

[dnevil]

Just ran this weekend on Nick Edward's Wimberley, Blanco & Southern, and they definitely have super-elevated curves. That track is built for speed. Super smooth and fun to run. They run very long trains double- and triple-headed, and with large locomotives (LE Northerns and Hudsons).

Here is a video of Bob Hornsby at the controls of WB&S #1209, charging the hill from Quail Hollow Junction to the Station. If you look closely you can see the train lean into the curves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r371QJd ... 5&index=68

Happy steaming!
Daris

[Rich_Carlstedt]

Anytime you or your passengers have to lean in any direction, its a heads up that something is wrong with the track and elevation.

Rich

[Fender]

I would be cautious about the amount of superelevation used on any track with steep grades, especially on sharp curves. When going upgrade, the forces acting through the couplers can tend to tip the train over to the inside of the curve. When going downgrade, you really shouldn't be going too fast anyway, so there is less need for it.

[R Paul Carey]

Here in at my home in VA I have approximately 2400' feet of 7-1/4" track (1-1/2" scale), with many main track curves through an old-growth forest. The line is laid with cedar ties and ballasted with crusher run, with surface and elevation maintained. Rail is a mixture of Culp (115#/yd. scale) with canted tie plates and 80# (plus some 85# scale) without plates, representing a reasonably well-maintained branch line in the late 1940's - early 1950's, just before the industry's "death spiral" had become apparent. Traffic was in decline but the road was still in good condition. Motive power is all-steam and rolling stock is "fully depreciated".

In my experience, appropriate curve elevation presents a superior ride quality. More importantly, as inevitable variations in cross-level develop, it serves to prevent "reverse elevation", which can be dangerous for obvious reasons. I use a truck-mounted inclinometer to maintain correct elevation, up to a maximum 1/2" (equal to 4" in full scale).

The line was substantially completed by 2009, designed for a maximum line speed of 45 MPH, as was its inspiration, the Putnam Division of the NYCS.

for anyone interested in a "virtual" ride on this line, go to youtube.com and search "Sunnybank, Putnam & Pacific RR", or use this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTiWVs_T1Fg

I am retired from the RR industry. You will note, in this video I am operating a camelback 4-4-0 (DL&W 988) in reverse. At the prompting of a good friend and former boss (a "stickler" for good operating practices), a turning loop was later built and all engines have operated "properly pointed" since.

Enjoy!

[powderhorn01]

Here at the Nevada Southern Live Steamers track, we initially super elevated all of the curves. However we have gone back and taken all of the super elevation out of the track. The reason we did this, is we found that the public were fighting the elevation, and causing derailments. After that was done, we have had no more problems with uncomfortable passengers. You might want to think about it if you haul the public on your track.

[johnpenn74]

From the prototype I have observed the following: The Norfolk Southern main in Duluth (79 MPH) has little tags on the ties that indicate the lift. We walked it once and saw 6 inches at the max! I would be hard pressed to scale that and see what happens.

From the Hayter text there are a whole bunch of calculations and all point back to 2 things; speed and load. Neither of these scale up due to riders. Richard did all kinds of work at the old track and tried 3/16 and 3/8 lift. Said it was sort of a trial and error to match the right tilt with the right riding speed.

I have a plumbers level that is graduated to fraction inches in a foot. 1/4 in 12 (which is about 1/8 + on 7.5 gauge.) I have tried 1/2 in 12 which is about 1/4. Some operators turned their nose up at it saying it was too much, I tend to think it was other longitutinal elevation issues.

Back at the Old NGLS track, I can't recall where we used 3/8s. Maybe it was in the cut. See photo,.. Note all the riders. It should be noted that we only let the public ride on T cars.

JP

[ccvstmr]

Hello JP...

If the question comes down to...should you super-elevate a 7.5" gauge track or not? I'd say...elevate! Super elevation is intended to normalize the forces resulting from speed and weight as the train traverses a curve. Gravity is trying to pull the train down. The centrifugal forces acting on the train are trying to pull the train over on the curve. Super elevation counteracts those forces. As long as the downward force from the center of gravity remains between the rails, the train will remain upright and continue around the curve. When those forces fall inside or outside the track structure, the train can derail, roll over. etc.

On real railroads...super elevation creates a problem when designing for rail lines carrying both freight and passenger train traffic. Ideally, the design should be based on the higher speed passenger trains. However, this results in excessive wear on the lower, inside rail from freight traffic as those trains will tend to "hug" the inside rail.

On 7.5" tracks...my experience has shown when the track is installed level on curves...in time the curved track ends up with reverse elevation (outside rail is lower than inside rail). As such, elevating the outside rail in the range of 1/8 to 3/16" is usually more than enough for our model trains with/without passengers. Elevations less than that range will be hard to control with the usual hand tools that are available. Bear in mind. there are other factors that come into play...type/size of ballast being a primary parameter. Additionally, when curved track has leading and trailing spirals (this doesn't always happen)...the elevation on the outside rail in the spiral should also be gradual.

There are "torpedo" levels that have graduation marks where the elevation can be monitored and the track elevated the desired distance. Or, a piece of metal machined with 1/16" steps can be taped to the level (assuming the level is longer than 7.5") and simply use the proper step depending on the elevation desired. Hope this helps. Carl B.