Run out of steam pressure after 100 feet

[Drprez]

I recently acquired a little Engine American and I’m new to this hobby

it was stored for many years so we got it we went through and did some lubricating stuff but we’re so green at operating it we’re not sure what’s going on all the things once we get it moving.

The boiler pressure test great no leaks we have safety valves checked good running at 120 psi boiler up

1) We get it moving but then we weren’t out of steam and it goes down to about 50 psi after about 100 to 200 feet why or where are we losing of the steam?

2) it sounds like a lot is coming out of the smokestack but What am I to look for ?

when we pressure tested or air test it no leaks coming out of anything. if I put it up on blocks it runs fine it doesn’t have any lag or stick.

3) so once I get moving how do I keep the steam pressure up so I can keep going without running out of steam ?

4) I keep the fire no problem I’m using propane but how do I keep the steam pressure to be able to go say a mile or two not 100 feet can somebody please help me?

5) What boiler pressure should we be running it out we’re running at 120 psi

6) what should the water level Be at we currently running at about 3/4 gauge glass

7) how long is the water in the boiler last for us to use if we’re running at full capacity how often do after but water in the boiler


Here is a link if it running on air with front open not sure if this air coming out is normal or not

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vvOBMN ... p=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cAjUEZ ... p=drivesdk


And here is a link of it running the short distance that it does

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wufu9d ... p=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DC-p-z ... p=drivesdk

if you’re able to help me and give me more than just a description but it supply pictures videos or images and drawings that will be much helpful since we don’t know all the terms were looking for and images are worth 1000 words

thank you

[Glenn Brooks]

Drprez,

Welcome to Chaski! There are lots of folks with experience with Little Engines Americans. So hopefully one or many will jump in here with suggestions.

In the meantime. Here’s a couple of things to do, that will assist on line folks to help you troubleshoot your loco.

First off, add your location to your on line name. This will alert local live steamers in your area to watch for your posts, and make it easier to talk to someone in person. You can edit your online name in the admin section- same spot you entered your on line name, I think...

Next up, it’s a real good idea to contact your local live steam club, and even take the loco out to the club track on a run day to have some help you fire it, and trouble shoot all the valves, steam pressure settings, water level, and settings, etc.

If we see your location- e.g. town or county you live in - Chaski members can direct you to the closest live steam club.

Now, your videos and description in your post suggest a couple of things:

Post another video of the backhead while starting and running the loco. - specifically capturing your steam pressure gauge AND water level. These are the only things that are important in a video to get an idea what your boiler is actually doing. Make at least a 45 second video or longer, of your start up sequence... your videos in this post are quite short, making it difficult to assess what maybe be going on.

Then,

1) water level- if your boiler is filled to the top, there won’t be any room to make or store steam. Confirm where your water level is, and where crown sheet is located in the boiler backhead. The crown sheet is the metal plate enclosing the top of the firebox, above the burner. Likely it is just above the firebox door. but confirm this by looking and measuring, then marking the location in chalk on the back of the boiler. It is imperative that you keep water level over the top of the crown sheet at all times. but not up to the top. If it is to full, as I mentioned - no room for steam. As you are new to firing the loco, get some chalk and draw a line on the back of the boiler, marking where the crown sheet is. Measure with a ruler or tape measure up from the burner if you have to,,,then,

2) verify water in the sight glass : keep water in the site glass maybe 1” or 2” above the level of the crown sheet. (Any little engines folk - correct me if I am wrong about proper water level in these small boilers )

3) open all boiler valves: make sure all the valves are open when running- particularity the sight glass valves. This allows water and steam to flow where it is supposed to.

4) turn off the blower valve - should be no steam shooting out the smoke stack through the blower as you start to move. (Blowers waste a lot of steam - particularity with the LE American’s small boiler capacity.

5) finally, make sure you have 120 PSI registered on your gauge before starting to run. If you start out with only 80 or 90 psi, your boiler can’t replenish the enough steam to continue operation.

6) injecting water into the boiler - make sure you are not constantly injecting water into the boiler. Start running with full 120 psi steam pressure, a good hot fire, and proper water level. Then Only inject water in small amounts, every minute or two. Injecting a lot of water at one time will kill boiler pressure by cooling the boiler water- hence eliminating steam pressure. With experience you will learn the ideal water level and how to sustain it.

Lastly,

7) start slowly- push the Johnson bar all the forward and only use minimum necessary steam throttle to move the loco. This last procedure minimizes steam loss, and allows the boiler to replenish what you use. Basically, just creep around the track at 2-3 MPH, while you figure things out.

Now,your stack exhaust sounds like you will need to adjust your steam valves. Each stroke of steam coming out the stack, should be same volume and duration. Your videos sound like 3 and 1 blasts . Meaning one of your valves is out of adjust,ent- but probably this is not a big deal. I wouldn’t worry about your valve settings until you become comfortable firing and consistently running the engine.

I hope this is helpful. Please let us know how you are doing.

And, any LE folks. Please jump in with better information!

Cheers,
Glenn

[Drprez]

Thanks For the great reply Glenn

when you were mentioning to adjust my steam valves where are the steam valves?

How do I need to adjust it?

how do I know when they are adjusted properly how do I change the one from doing 1 to 3 and bring one to one I guess?

I noticed it when I run there’s no steam coming out of the cylinders like when I look at other videos of peoples so I’m not sure if somethings not right. All the plugs and everything are clear they’re not plugged.

[Bill Shields]

as described by others - it sounds like steam leaking either past the valves or piston rings.

loss of pressure with little motive force pretty much dictates one (or both) of these conditions exist.

I would be planning on beginning disassembly...

[Drprez]

Which valves are you referring to ? How do I get to them?

On air there are no leaks. So what am I dissembling?

[Drprez]

When you say open all boiler valves ? You mean in the cab?

[Greg_Lewis]

Hi Nicholas:
My advice is to stop. While the above posts are good advice, I think you need someone to show you in person how it all works. In the Las Vegas area you should contact the Nevada Southern Live Steamers in Boulder City. Call Bob Sorenson at 702-539-6080. And/or the Las Vegas Railroad Society, 702-656-9705. These clubs are listed in Live Steam and someone there should be able to help you. Trying to diagnose your issues here via written words and videos isn't the best way to do it, and no one wants anything to be damaged because of a misinterpretation or misunderstanding.

[Pontiacguy1]

Sounds to me like you have a leak inside the smoke box somewhere in your dry pipe-the pipe that delivers the steam from the boiler down to the cylinders. Without seeing it, I can't make that determination, but if you do have such a leak, it will kill your draft, your pressure will drop like a rock when you open your throttle, and it will sound like continuous steam coming out of the stack, like you have the blower on, even if you don't. It could also be blow-by in your cylinders, but someone with some experience would need to look at it in-person to make a final determination. I think Greg has the right idea... Take it to someone nearby who has experience that can help you get it right. You don't want to spend a lot of time fixing the wrong thing, getting frustrated, etc... and you also don't want to mess anything up!

[ChuckHackett-844]

....
4) turn off the blower valve - should be no steam shooting out the smoke stack through the blower as you start to move. (Blowers waste a lot of steam - particularity with the LE American’s small boiler capacity.
....
Cheers,
Glenn

It is a bad idea to turn off the blower valve in a propane-fired engine.

Unlike coal firing, any time gas is flowing you must have draft.

When you cut off the draft and gas is still flowing you will have flames up the side of the locomotive!

As long as you are moving fast enough to create enough draft with the exhaust you can turn off the blower - however - it's way too easy (especially if inexperienced) to be running along with the blower off and then having to stop for something and forget that the blower is off and hence need a new paint job on the cab/engine.

As to propane firing - It's not as easy as it seems.

The two biggest problems I see is that:

a) people mount the burner too high (base of flame should be at about the level of the bottom of the water in the water legs).

b) Flame is not blue (there should be very little yellow)

c) No arch - Propane is a 'slow burning' fuel. As soon as the gassed enter the flue tubes the flame is quenched. This causes unburned hydrocarbons and is the 'acid' smell you get from some engines. An arch extends the flame path, reducing this. In my 18" x 12" firebox the arch plate comes back from just below the lower row of flues about 1.5" then up at about a 60 degree angle and then back about 1" under the crown sheet to within about 3" from the back of the firebox. Very close (touching) to the front and sides of the firebox.

d) There is too much draft. A coal-fired engine burns hotter as it works harder. A propane-fired engine will not put out more heat as you increase the draft (either with the blower or stack exhaust). Any air you have flowing through the firebox in excess of what the burner needs at full fire is serving only to cool down the boiler - exactly what you don't want when working hard.

People usually address the draft problem in two ways:

a) Make an extension for the exhaust nozzle so that the cylinder discharge is higher in the stack (and thus generate less draft). Unfortunately this alters the 'stack talk' drastically.

b) Make a pan for the bottom of the firebox to cut down the amount of air entering. The design of this pan depends on your burner design but the object is to cut off most of the incoming air.

The burner in my Northern needs 2" of water smokebox vacuum at full fire. I built a 'damper' in the smokebox that is set to open at 2" of water, thus dumping excess vacuum.

Here is a video of part of a 3 hour run at Train Mountain

https://youtu.be/lsaRKzx9z_g

The gauge in the middle is the boiler pressure. The gauge on the right is the blower pressure. The valve on the right is the blower valve. You will notice that, when the engine is working harder, I do turn off the blower, when you don't hear much stack talk I open the blower valve. (The bucket of coal is 'Emergency Fuel' )

[Bill Shields]

even with poorly managed propane burner and no heat added to the boiler (fire out), there should be sufficient latent heat in the water to run more than 100' before the boiler goes to zero pressure.

One thought...and easy test...requires a large diameter dowel and a few minutes of time.

make a wooden plug, tapered like a pencil that you can stick DOWN the stack and plug the exhaust hole.

pressurize the boiler with air....put the loco up on blocks...put the loco in forward or reverse.

while holding this plug firmly in place, open the throttle slowly.

If you get a LOT OF AIR coming out the stack even with the plug in place, you most likely have a leak between the throttle and cylinders..anywhere in the piping area BEFORE the steam actually gets to the valve chests. (it does not look like you have superheaters)

if you have the smokebox cover off, you can probably see / hear where the steam is coming from.

As Chuck says, propane firing is not as easy as 'toss in a match'..but if the loco HAS run before, the basic setup should be close enough to get you down the tracks more than you are experiencing.

[Glenn Brooks]

Nicholas,

Great to see you added your location- already paid dividends, as I see a couple of referrals to your local live steam club. People in the hobby are very generous with their advice and time. Iam sure one of the club members can help you trouble shoot what’s going on.

The valves I was speaking about are the three valves showing in your photo of the cab.

Also just noticed a brass horizontal water pump mounted on the left side of the running board. Yet, no apparent control valve or steam line in the cab to control operation? Is this water pump operating all the time? If so, you could be injecting enuf water into the boiler to kill your steam pressure. Just something to check out ...

Here’s a video of a 15” ga Crown locomotive railroad I just came across. About half way through the video, the RR owner explains the internal workings of the boiler and steam valves - devices on top of the cylinders that control the steam flow into the cylinders. This might give you an idea of what to look for regarding valve adjustment. It’s pretty simple really. So perhaps a good reference.

https://youtu.be/6HMz_4us2KQ?fbclid=IwA ... q5Tg4dzqeA

But first sort out your drop in steam pressure. I’d still like to see a longer video of your start up and water level/boiler pressure. It might be something as simple as having to little steam reserve available as you start up, or a valve closed somewhere...

Let us know how you progress. And don’t be discouraged. There is always a learning curve!

Glenn

[Drprez]

Thank you for the contact info

I am going to test the air and see if it comes out if the stack is plugged