Timken 1111 (four aces)

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Timken 1111 (four aces)

Post by RICHK » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:17 pm

I am beginning my research for drawings of this locomotive.
I have found a listing of Tom Storey's drawings now held a the California State Railroad Museum.
However before I start collecting on my own I am curious to learn if others have already done this search, and acquired some drawings.
I have found mention of a Roy Johnston's build of this locomotive in 3/4" scale but no mention as to where he got his plans or drawings.
Perhaps there is another builder out there who would share his experience with me (us?).

By the way I have also collected all the articles published in Modeltec magazine about Roy Johnston's project: lots of words, a few diagrams and almost no dimensions. In the end nothing to really support a build project (good for magazine sales I suppose).

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Re: Timken 1111 (four aces)

Post by Pontiacguy1 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:29 pm

I used to work for The Timken Company, but never had any luck getting any drawings from anyone, as those I believe had been turned over to someone else a long time ago. At least that is what I was told. Supposedly, there is a model of the four aces in a small museum somewhere in the Canton, Ohio area. Not even sure what scale it is in, or who built it. I never had an opportunity to go look for it. This is something that I am very interested in, as the four aces was indeed a game-changer in the locomotive world. It wasn't a huge 4-8-4 like the Santa-Fe or N&W locomotives, but she performed exceptionally well.

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Re: Timken 1111 (four aces)

Post by NCBQGUY » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:01 pm

Don’t forget that the Four Aces was purchased by the NP wand associated interests may have drawings (NPHS, etc).
The engine has been done in HO brass so tracking down the project drawings might yield good stuff.
Charlie Vlk

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Re: Timken 1111 (four aces)

Post by Mark Landgraf » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:25 pm

Two gentlemen were involved in preparing drawings that ultimately became the Tom Storey collection of Timkin Four Aces drawings that currently reside at the California State RR Museum. First was Roy H Johnson, and secondly was Roy Storey. Together, they produced about 200 1½ inch scale drawings. This all occurred about 1975 in the pacific northwest.

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Re: Timken 1111 (four aces)

Post by PRR5406 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:04 pm

Which raises the question if anyone have constructed a completely roller bearing equipped live steamer, and if so, what is the legacy of the locos performance?
"Always stopping my train, and risking my ankles, with American made, New Balance sneakers."

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Re: Timken 1111 (four aces)

Post by Berkman » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:35 pm

The four aces was thus turned into the Northern Pacific A2 class. I'd search for the Northern Pacific drawings instead of the timken drawings.
Here is a link with basic dimensions: http://steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php ... ailroad=np

Not sure how exact of a model you are wanting to build, but 77 inch drivers, scale out to 9.6 in 1.5 scale and 10.26 in 1.6 scale. Doesn't seem the difference is worth the trouble to not use any of the commercially available 10 inch drivers.
I'd just use drawings/castings for a LE New Northern and go from there.

You could always use RRSC mikado or Roger Goldmann pacific cylinders with your own Valve gear design from prototype drawings on the LE chassis to get the look of the valve gear and cross head setup more accurate.
Saw this on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAIu-oXFxVg
No idea who owns it or what castings etc were used.

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Re: Timken 1111 (four aces)

Post by tsph6500 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:47 pm

The late Phil Wunder built a Four Aces in 7-1/4" gauge and Fred Jerome built one in 3-1/2" gauge back in the late 30s or early 40s. Fred was the president of the Toronto Society of Model Engineers back in those days.
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Re: Timken 1111 (four aces)

Post by ERIE S-1 BERKSHIRES » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:51 pm

Just to let everybody know the four aces that is in the Canton museum is Roy Johnson's, also Northeast Ohio live steamers has another member that has a 3/4 scale 4 aces that his father built very nicely detail locomotive and a good runner!, And I believe Brian keim has Sandy Jenkins 1.5 scale 4 aces that I can't remember who built it?????

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Re: Timken 1111 (four aces)

Post by NP317 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:09 pm

Broadway Limited has just released an HO scale brass-hybrid model of the NP A-3 locomotive, very close to the 1111 (later the NP 2626.)
https://www.broadway-limited.com/parago ... thern.aspx

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Re: Timken 1111 (four aces)

Post by Rob Gardner » Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:24 pm

The 1-1/2" scale model of the Four Aces that Sandy Jenkins had was built by Webb Donald who lived in Canton, OH. It really didn't follow the exact dimensions and proportions of the prototype Four Aces and allegedly used some LE Old Northern castings. It's a very nice engine and a great performer, but it's really not a true scale model of the original.

The Four Aces that Phil Wunder built is quite an engine, or was. Phil told me once that it was probably one of the very first 1-1/2" scale locomotives started in the US as he believed it was first started around 1942. He said he was about the 3rd owner when he obtained it and the chassis would not roll on its own. He said he had to use a chain fall to drag it up a ramp out of the basement of the previous owner. Once he got into it, he discovered that the engine had been built and timed at one point with main rods that were like 1/4" or 1/2" different in length. He said that no matter how hard he tried he could not get the engine to run and be properly timed with identical length main rods. He ended up finishing the engine with different length main rods! It's still that way today.

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Re: Timken 1111 (four aces)

Post by 10 Wheeler Rob » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:31 pm

I was told the four aces Phil Wonder completed had derailing issues due to the main driver castings being to thin. I was also told that it was sold to Howard Gorwin who took it apart to have the driver tire width issue fixed, and it has been stored in that state for several years.


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Re: Timken 1111 (four aces)

Post by Asteamhead » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:27 pm

Post by PRR5406 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:04 am

Which raises the question if anyone have constructed a completely roller bearing equipped live steamer, and if so, what is the legacy of the locos performance?

"Always stopping my train, and risking my ankles, with American made, New Balance sneakers."

The answer is "yes" :D
Please have a look at my post ' N&W A 1239 with Timken running gear' (page 2)

https://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/vi ... 9&start=12

For my German DB class 44 had been equipped the same back some 40 years, it's out of question this will work out fine.
The 44 ran more than 2,500 miles with just a small number of bearings to be replaced due to wear.
Just a shot of grease to every point once a year, that is 8)
Ball bearings made of stainless steel throughout including cross heads and valve gear improved availability a great deal :D

All the best by
A-Timken-rods red.jpg
Timken rods
A Timken crosshead details 2013-03 red.jpg
Timken crossheads
A Baker mit Bell Crank 1.jpg
Baker valve gear
A Timken set of parts red.jpg
Timken parts set

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