Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

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MsChrissi
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Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by MsChrissi » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:02 pm

I have been able to find very little documentation on the M-21 Moguls, so hopefully the vast experience of list members may know some of the bits and pieces I bring up now and in the future on this thread as I am able to post them?

First up is this large pump(?) on the port side of the locomotive.(There is a duplex pump on the other side of the engine).
Can anyone identify what it is, manufacturer, is there a functional or dummy in 1.5" scale, or at the very least, drawings or dimensions or one on a static display full size somewhere?
it appears to have a line (the diagonal) coming up from the tender. By the way, while we are at it, can anyone identify the model number of the tender? It appears the 10-14 units of the M-21 that were built may have all been oil burners, I was hoping for at least one being a coal burner.

Thanks, Chrissi
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Mogul M21 sp-s1840dsa.jpg

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FLtenwheeler
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by FLtenwheeler » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:29 pm

The left pump is a BL Worthington feed water heater.

TIM
He who dies with the most unfinished projects: Should of put more time into their hobby.

JHannah
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by JHannah » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:30 pm

Worthington type BL feedwater heater

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SPSteam2491
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by SPSteam2491 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:20 pm

Roger Goldmann sells the side view and cross section views of that SP class. I think all the M-21 class locomotives burned oil as they operated on the TNO portion of the system.

Roger also sells the prints for that Feedwater Heater. There is enough information on those prints to make an outline of the pump.

The tender looks to be a 70-C-2 class.
Thanks
John LaFavor
Pacific Design Shops

Rwilliams
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by Rwilliams » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:17 pm

The M-21 class was a real brute of a Mogul. One of the heaviest Mogul designs ever constructed and certainly the largest of the SP system. They were considered "little Mikados" as they could pull the same train as a MK-5 on flat divisions down south. Their weight kept them off of some branches. They were the only small steamers to have the bell ahead of the stack, a design style usually reserved for much larger locomotives like the SP class and the GS-1 class. With such power, it is no wonder they rated a feedwater heater and pump.

MsChrissi
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by MsChrissi » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:36 pm

Rwilliams, That's why we like this little beast.
Collecting details and drawing parts.
John LaFavor, when we've accumulated enough details on pumps, tenders, accessories etc maybe by then there will be enough to meet Roger Goldmann's $50 minimum order?
JHannah, Tim, thanks, any guess on the model number of the BL type heater?
Also thanks to Allen Stanley, I contacted him off list to see if he had anything on these engines and he had a few general spec sheets that gave me some important dimensions, a very big help.

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SPSteam2491
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by SPSteam2491 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:26 pm

You look to be pretty close to the total with the drawings you need to get. Another source for prints would be the California State Railway Museum. They have Library and Archives Collection with a lot of SP drawings.

The model number for that feedwater heater likely is a BL-2. The type is BL and the size is 2 (although there are other sizes).
Thanks
John LaFavor
Pacific Design Shops

MsChrissi
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by MsChrissi » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:45 pm

Thanks John,
Since you identified the 70-C-2, how would this be differentiated from a 90-C-2; is the 90 just a longer tank?... and where could I possibly find enough specifications to begin drawing one? RogerGoldman's site does not list a 70 or 90 and I do not know enough of the specifics of that class to make assumptions like take drawings of a 100 and shorten it 30%.
Also the BL-2, do you know any information that would be relevant for scaling? I found three images relating to the heater I can trace into CAD but no scaling dimensions to work with.
I'll dig around on the California State Railway Museum site and see what I can find, thanks for the pointer!

Mr_Blonde
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by Mr_Blonde » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:52 am

Have you reached out to the Southern Pacific Historical and Technical Society? They may have some information. I bought a couple books from them, one of them exclusively on tenders. I even got a drawing for a 70-C-9 from Arnold Menke. According to the Diagrams of Tenders Southern Pacific company, a 90-C-2 is 33' 9" and the 70-C-2 is 28' 3" from coupler to chafing iron. They are similar in height and the water bunker(?) is the same diameter.

I look forward to seeing your progress. I am in the process of building an M-63 Mogul, and first on the list is the above mentioned tender.

Good luck on your information hunt!

MsChrissi
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by MsChrissi » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:32 am

Mr_Blonde,
Thanks for the information! Do you have any sharable diagrams (without violating someone's copyright) of the tenders?

jcbrock
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by jcbrock » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:43 pm

SPSteam2491 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:26 pm
The model number for that feedwater heater likely is a BL-2. The type is BL and the size is 2 (although there are other sizes).
Small correction here (pedantic I know, but you gotta know what you're looking for). Worthington made 3 types of "B" pump, the "B", the "BL" and the "BL-2". The difference between a BL and a BL-2 is really minor, the steam valve on the upper right side of the pump is different and hard to discern in the picture. The size number was a prefix, so you could have a 2BL or a 2BL-2. That pump looks a little large for a #2 to me, and I've got one SP book that states some Moguls received #3 pumps. M-21 being the largest of the SP Moguls, it would be the natural candidate for a #3. Easy way to tell for sure (if you have one) is to measure the various pipe diameters, for example the suction pipe was 2.5" on a 2BL and 3" on a 3BL. All that said, you could put any type of size 2 or 3 pump on there and likely find an example of it through various shoppings and swappings. I've got no drawings, but I sure want someone to make one for my 1" Pacific!

I agree with John that looks like a 70-C tender. Anything 70-C through 100-C would work, the SP swapped them all the time and I've seen pictures of Moguls in their later years with 100-C tenders. The longer tender would be much more comfortable to ride.
John Brock

MsChrissi
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by MsChrissi » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:59 pm

Thanks John,
Second time today I have been advised that a larger tender might be better with respect to riding. Of the photos of full sized M-21's I have I think that was the clearest depiction of the feedwater heater, I'll check the others.
Now when you say you wish someone could build one you are just talking about a dummy, right? After seeing the cross section drawings I'd not attempt one on my best day, an injector will be enough of a challenge. Have not even posted the injector featured on the other side, one thing at a time.
...Chrissi

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