Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

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makinsmoke
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by makinsmoke » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:28 pm

Here’s a cropped photo of Marty’s of the 3420 in Marty’s shop. The seat is folded down forward.

Hope it was ok to steal your pic Marty!!
7D30A7B7-0D2C-438A-B47A-EA51B077B321.jpeg
SP 3420 at Ridge Locomotive Shops 2012

jcbrock
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by jcbrock » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:22 pm

Another data point I found a picture of 1842 with a 100-C-1. SP had a large rebuild program of 70's into 100's, so some of the musical chairs is probably that. Some is due to service considerations - where could they get water? Some was likely which car was ready to go when a locomotive came out of a shopping. The choice is yours, build the one you like. Maybe think about how you're going to use the engine. Easy transportation? 70-C or 60-R. Want to ride two up or go long distances between water (ie Train Mtn)? Then 100-C or 90-R.
John Brock

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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by Pontiacguy1 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:40 pm

Was that Harry 'Scorcher' Bean's 2-8-0?
SP seemed to do a lot like the N&W did. They modified some locomotives, left some un-modified, modified them over a period of time instead of all at once, changed some items only when they had to, switched tenders from older scrapped or retired locomotives, added electrical features and pumps at different times, and generally did what any of us would do if we ran the railroad: Which is that they modified and improved when and where it made sense and did as much as they could afford to do, and also scrounged and salvaged to make what they had go farther and work better.
This mogul seems a lot like the M-class from the N&W in that you can pick out almost any configuration and build it and it there will be a prototype example somewhere in the class history that at some point that was configured that way. If I were building one, I would pick a specific locomotive from a particular year/era, which has the features I want and find appealing, and then model that one. You can make yourself go crazy trying to figure out if this locomotive had that during this year, or when it was changed, or if they removed something later in its life. That's the beauty of building a model like that... You have a lot of leeway. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

MsChrissi
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by MsChrissi » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:22 pm

Yes I kind of picked the M-21 because it's not another "generic" 2-6-0. it is a 2-6-0 on steroids; bigger drivers, bigger cylinders, bigger boiler, higher pressure, higher gross weight. There was not enough room around the boiler for the front doors you see on other Moguls. They had feedwater heaters. A great little workhorse and had features that would set it apart from other Moguls.

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NP317
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by NP317 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:48 pm

#1843 has an injector plumbed in instead of the BL heater. And it otherwise appears operable, not on a scrap line.
Sadly, I witnessed many an SP scrap line in the San Francisco Bay area in the late 1950s.
Scarring images...
RussN

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Doug_Edwards
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by Doug_Edwards » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:43 pm

NP317 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:48 pm
#1843 has an injector plumbed in instead of the BL heater. And it otherwise appears operable, not on a scrap line.
Sadly, I witnessed many an SP scrap line in the San Francisco Bay area in the late 1950s.
Scarring images...
RussN
The 1838 has either a 90 R-3 or 4 tender. The 1839 has a 90 R 1 or 2 tender. Visually I can't tell the difference between the 90 R1 or 2, or between the 90R 3 or 4.

The 1838 appears to be in a dead line out of service, but is not on the scrap line. All these images were taken between the mid 30's and mid 40's. The locos were built in Houston on the T&NO, but were transferred (leased?) to the Pacific lines for a few years, before being transferred back to the T&NO. The numbering of the locos in the images is Pacific lines numbering, not T&NO.

Like R Williams said, the feedwater heater on the 1838 was probably removed to be used on another loco. The only times that SP placed a cross compound air pump on the engineers side of the loco was when there was a feed water heater on the firemans side, or some times when there were two air pumps and no feed water heater, but that was less common. At this time period, SP was not taking feed water heaters off of operating locos like they did in the 50's.

Some locos had the feedwater heater and injector both on the firemans side, with the FWH plumbed to the check valve on the engineers side. Fwiw.

Regards,


Doug
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Building a 70 ton Willamette in 1.6"
Building a 80 ton Climax in 1.6"

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8thscale
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by 8thscale » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:01 am

Mr_Blonde wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:20 am
MsChrissi wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:32 am
Mr_Blonde,
Thanks for the information! Do you have any sharable diagrams (without violating someone's copyright) of the tenders?
I don't think I would be able to share the diagrams. The book and drawing are both available for purchase. If you are on the fence, I would buy the Diagram of Tenders for SP.
Here is a great source for new and used books of all kinds! I see one available.
www.abebooks.com


Dave

photopro
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by photopro » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:10 am

I am in the process of restoring an M-21 SP mogul that is supposedly a 1" scale model. It is owned by the Galveston RR Museum and was underwater in the museum for several days during the Hurricane Ike floods back in 2008. The museum does not seem to have any notes from the builder or person who donated it so I thought I would post here to see if someone can somehow shed a bit more light on the model or it's class.

After the hurricane waters went down, the museum put the engine and tender into some kind of preservative for a week or two, dried them out, and have waited until now for someone to restore it for them. I volunteered to do the job in December last year and I have been trying to learn more about this engine, but to no avail. It seemed awfully large to me for a 1" scale engine, but comments on this post lead me to believe that M-21 class were quite a bit larger than normal Moguls so it may be 1" scale after all.

The model itself, pictured here the day I brought it home, is numbered 527, which as it happens, was an M-21 actually built in shops here in Houston. This is a rather old model and is definitely scratch built. The drivers are made of steel parts brazed together. The cylinders are the same. The wheels and frames
527-2-locomotive.jpg
for the tender trucks look like sand castings, again looking rather rough like they were done by a builder rather than a manufacturer. When I removed the fuel tank, I discovered that it's bottom had rusted completely out so I will make a new one.

Whoever the builder was, he was pretty good with sheet metal work which leads me to believe he may have been in the trade. Some of the covers for tool boxes and tank covers have such tight shallow folds on the lips I suspect they were done on commercial machinery. I originally estimated 6 months for a cosmetic restoration, but may have to change that. The tender rebuild is about 60% complete.
Attachments
527-tender.jpg

MsChrissi
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by MsChrissi » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:43 am

What a find! Please post a lot of pictures if you can, details, please?

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NP317
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by NP317 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:37 am

Fascinating.
What track gauge is the locomotive?
RussN

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Marty_Knox
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by Marty_Knox » Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:59 pm

Pontiacguy1 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:40 pm
Was that Harry 'Scorcher' Bean's 2-8-0?
Yes, it is. Not many know, but I had started it for Harry when I lived in Texas. When I moved to Michigan to work at the Huckleberry RR Harry came and got what I had done. He took it to Al Humbyrd to finish it.
I did an overhaul of it in 2012.

photopro
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Re: Help identify a part M-21 Mogul

Post by photopro » Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:52 pm

Russ,
The gauge is 4 3/4". Here are a couple more photos of the tender before and after work on it. One of the photos shows the tender cleaned up and painted. I am not doing "bodywork" to make it look like new. The museum just wants it cleaned up so the rough spots will stay. I am adding a walkway that was missing on one side and still have to build a new fuel tank. The original tanks bottom and part of a side dropped out when I started to clean it up. Nothing but rust. I had thought at one time I might be able to restore it to working condition, but the water tank was still weeping after I got it cleaned up and washed the mold out of the inside. The builder painted some kind of thick rubber compound on the inside to seal it, but there is no way I can get it out and put something better inside.

The engine and all of it's controls are totally locked up with corrosion. I'm hoping to at least make it movable again, but am going to have to take it completely apart for that. I might mention that it has two super-heaters in it, which kind of surprised me.
Attachments
before-cleanup.jpg
This is before I started cleanup.
engine.jpg
Engine before I removed the cab and opened smokebox
under-tender.jpg
Under the tender before cleanup
replacing-missing-walkway.jpg
Installing brackets for new walkway

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